Condensation on outside of one window-normal?

[lruby]

Hi,

We had our new dual pane vinyl replacement windows installed this week. So far I'm very happy, but we had something odd happen last night.

It rained last night and we had condensation on the outside of the outside pane of the fixed portion of a horizontal slider in our bedroom this morning, and there is water in the track in front of the fixed portion of the window. It was the only window in the house that did this. (We had 26 windows and a sliding glass door installed - 8 of these are horizontal sliders. ) We live in San Diego and the temperature stayed above 50 last night. We did not have the heat running, so the temp in the house was in the mid 60s. The window is in a bay type section of our room. There are two single hungs on either side of it, in the sides of the bay. The SHs were both open about 2 inches, the slider was closed. We did not get argon gas with these windows. The windows are Brothers Home Improvement California Series and are made with Cardinal Easy Clean glass and SuperSpacers. The differences between the environment for this window and the others are: 1- We had windows open on either side of it, 2 - It's on a part of the house that may have been hit by the rain differently than where the other sliders are. Is this condensation, and water in that part of the track something that would be considered normal, or could there be something wrong with this particular window, or how it was installed? Thanks.

Lisa

[lagreca]

lruby,

I am looking at windows for my house, only need 8 and 2 sliding doors. I am leaning towards brothers home improvement windows as well. I'm curious if you like them after a year, and what you thought of their service?

Thanks!

Joe

[lruby]

Hi Joe,

We are very happy with our windows. We've had them for nine months. It stayed warmer in the house this past winter and it's staying cooler in the house on the hot days we're having now. We've had no long term issues with any of the windows.

We had a few issues when the windows were first installed and Brothers took care of them right away. We ordered grids in our slider and they didn't put them in, so they replaced the panels. They mis-measured a specialty window and had to redo it and took care of it within a timely manner. (It took about a month because the window had to be remade.) We also had a few small issues with adjustments on some of the single-hungs and they came out within a few days of initial installation to take care of those. We've had no additional problems since these things were taken care of.

I'm happy with our choice.

Lisa

[av]

I too am almost set on Brothers' California windows. They seem good performers in almost every respect. They have thick multi-chambered vinyl frames, double strength glass with an overall I.G. thickness of 7/8", EdgeTech SuperSpacer, good camlocks, a decent strong frame (C30), standard LoE3 coating and silicon dioxide for keeping the glass clean a little longer, and a good warranty.

I compared them to the Polybau Milan AKA 400 AKA Malibu, to be installed by Allbrand. The 400 seems like very good window too. The Brothers' window edges it out for some things such as I.G thickness of 7/8" versus 3/4" for the Polybau, C30 rating versus R30, standard LoE3 and exterior silicon dioxide, and they will make a 2-panel 10 foot slider patio door while Polybau will do up to 8 feet only. The Polybau seems to have a nicer sliding door track, and possibly longer lasting REHAU vinyl, but there is no objective measure of that last claim

I am also taking into account the installers. I like that Allbrand uses expanding foam. I haven't checked, but I think Brothers uses simple insulating foam. But some of our windows have security bars (the pevious owner must have had a mattress full of cash ) that the installers will remove. Allbrand said they will plug only the bolt holes that are underneath the fins (with what wasn't clear), but Brothers said they will cover up with plaster all holes, whether under or outside the fins. Also, while I know that the Brothers installers have screwed up some things (a friend's house and some posts here), they have been very responsive in fixing any mistakes as well as performing warranty service. Allbrand has gotten some complaints in followup service.

The prices are close enough, but you are still looking at $11,000 and a couple of hundreds versus $12,400 for Polybau without the exterior silicon dioxide. I would be happy with either windows, but the Brothers seems just a tad better overall, and the installer is a better known entity for me and is willing to plug all the security bar bolt holes. Given that, the price difference is only a bonus.

[lruby]

Hi,

I don't know where you live--we live in San Diego. Brothers used a low-expanding foam for insulation when they installed our windows. It seems to have worked very well. I haven't noticed any warping due to over-expansion of the foam, and noticed no air leaks over the winter.

Lisa

[av]

I live in Los Angeles, so the weather is similar to San Diego, perhaps just a little cooler. Was the low expanding foam the kind you spray into the cracks or did it come in the form of strips?

[lruby]

It was not strips. It was a spray type foam. I don't remember exactly what type of applicator they used. I did watch them do a few windows, but it's been awhile.

Lisa

[av]

It was not strips. It was a spray type foam. I don't remember exactly what type of applicator they used. I did watch them do a few windows, but it's been awhile.

Thanks Lisa. We are almost set on Brothers but are still also considering Polybau 400s with Allbrand.

After about one year, how do you like the Brothers windows? Are the sliders still working smoothly with little effort to move them? How about your patio door? Still as smooth as day one? Any complaints regarding any aspect of the Brothers windows?

Thanks.

[lruby]

I have no complaints so far. The windows still slide easily, including the door. They told us to use Armour All on them if they get sticky. That's what they used when they came out to adjust windows that had issues right after the install. So far we haven't had to use more of it.

Lisa

[av]

It was not strips. It was a spray type foam. I don't remember exactly what type of applicator they used. I did watch them do a few windows, but it's been awhile.

Our salesman told us they use Novaflex caulking to fill gaps of 1/8" or less and that they use a foam to seal larger gaps. It was my wife who was talking to him, and he mentioned that they don't use the foam on small gaps becuase of flyback. That makes me think it is a foam that gets sprayed. But he was adamant they don't use expandable foam.

I wonder whether there is just terminology confusion out there, that those who refuse to use expandable foam are still using a spray foam to fill the gaps, and that they don't realize people are just calling this low-expanding foam

[lruby]

Hi,

I would ask to speak with the installers. This doesn't sound right. There are two areas that need to be sealed/insulated. The outside flange needs to be sealed against the house and on our house they used a clear, paintable, silicon caulking for that. They ran a lot of it it all the way around the inside of the flange before they seated the windows. (It was paintable. We had the outside of our house painted this past spring.)

Then they have to insulate the gaps that exist on the inside after the window is seated into the frame. With the retrofits there are considerable gaps. I never saw anything that was anywhere near as low as an 1/8" or less from what I remember. In fact I'm pretty sure they leave at least that much gap when they measure to make sure the windows will fit within the old frames. To seal these gaps they used the low-expanding foam. It's possible that you have a different type of frame than we have that might make your installation different. We previously had single frame aluminum windows. Brothers only does retrofits as far as I know. They don't do new construction windows. If I am wrong, and they do new construction windows and that is what you are getting, then it would be different than what I'm explaining.

I wonder if your sales person is a bit out of date. A long time ago the rule was to not use expanding foams for retrofit installs because they tended to expand too much and it warped the windows. Sometime in the not to distant past the retrofit window industry asked one of the companies that makes foam (might have been Dupont, I can't remember what I read) to make them a low expanding foam specifically for door and window installations. Nearly everyone that installs retrofit windows uses this foam now. It insulates very well and doesn't cause warping. You should be able to search the 'Net and find this info. That's how I found it, but I haven't got the links to the articles.

I'm going to be away from e-mail for the next six days so if you have more questions I won't be able to respond for a little while.

Lisa

[av]

Lisa,

We also have the typical California aluminum single pane sliders and we are having the ususal retrofit installation where the old aluminum frame is left in place. You are right that with the old frame left in place, there is no way there can be a gap less than 1/8". Looking at our frames, it looks more like the gaps will be in the 3/8" to 3/4" range, if not more for some windows.

I wonder whether the salesman knows that expandable foam used to be a problem, so he is just assuming that the foam that is now being sprayed is not of the expandable type.

[BillG49]

av.

Dow makes 3 versions of Great Stuff. One is low expanding designed for use in sealing exterior doors and windows.
See http://greatstuff.dow.com/greatstuff/cons/windoor.htm