Help!(Vinyl vs Wood), (Replacement vs New Construct), Brand?

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Confused_in_Northern_IL
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Help!(Vinyl vs Wood), (Replacement vs New Construct), Brand?

#1 Post by Confused_in_Northern_IL »

We live in Northern IL and have a 18 year old home with wood (fir) Marvin double-pane casements. (9) openings ranging in size from 94x45 down to 26x45. Our current windows still seal pretty well, despite the old seals that are hard and falling off. However, we know we need to do some maintenence and new windows are more energy efficient.

We have looked at several windows and received a few quotes. All are local, reputable companies with good BBB ratings. We are toiling over a few decisions and would appreciate any guidance to those more experienced than us!

Debate #1: Replacement (retrofit) vs New Construction
Although we would guess there is less mess and potential interior disturbance with retrofit, we do not want to lose more glass size, we want to be sure we have an air/water tight fit, and we don't like the extra trim piece installed inside the window. On the other hand, we've been told that New Contruction installation can be very messy and you may end up with new trim damaged from removal. But we (think) we would have a better fit overall, wouldn't lose glass space and no extra trim piece.

Debate #2: Vinyl vs Wood interior
We want no maintenance, but know wood looks more rich inside. We have a whole-house Aprilaire and these old Marvin windows produce significant condensation, staining the wood. We're thinking we need to go to all vinyl with woodgrain interior to remove this worry.

Debate #3: Brand
We are simply sick and tired of looking at brands and options, adding to our confusion. At this time, we have (2) we are seriously considering. Polaris Ultraweld Supreme (LowE/Argon) with woodgrain interior, is just under $10k, depending on window configuration. We like the triple seal, the matching woodgrain screens, and the woodgrain tone matches our oak trim fairly close. However, overall, this window appears to have less glass than our existing wood windows, so it feels like we would lose light and visibility. This would be a New Construction install, but we have been told that our home was constructed such that they would not have to 'cut' the old windows out. I don't remember the term used.

The other brand in consideration is Thermal Ind. Sellebrity series where they have a promotion to include the triple-pane, 2-coat LowE, Krypton glass. This is a vinyl clad window outside and wood inside. This company installs via the replacement/retrofit method. Cost is comparable to the Polaris quote. However, they would not be maintenance free and we do not want to lose glass or light. Plus, these have screens like our current windows, fairly flimsy and only limited solid colors to choose from. We like how the vinyl wraps around the edge of the wood sashes.

We are SO confused and believe there are plus and minus to everything we have considered. Any thoughts or advice would be very much appreciated. We want to make a decision in a few days so we can get moving on the project.

Thanks in advance!

Confused_in_Northern_IL
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:42 pm

Thanks Anyway

#2 Post by Confused_in_Northern_IL »

One month and over 100 views, but no replies. I had high hopes for gaining some insights or thoughts from others more experienced than us. OK, thanks for all the folks that read our post. Good luck to everyone.

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Window4U (IL)
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#3 Post by Window4U (IL) »

My concern for you would be the condensation issue. If you are getting vinyl because of the fact that the condensation won't hurt vinyl, then great, but how about doing everything you can to stop the condensation as well.

Address the causes. Check humidity levels in the home and if high address that. Also, make sure window treatments have a way to circulate air behind the treatment when closed. If there is no air circulating behind a window treatment, the glass temperature will drop dramatically and condensation will more easily form.

Finally, consider getting the best glass package in the new windows you can(possibly triple glazed), and the warmest glass spacer you can find (spacers such as SuperSpacer and TPS are non-metallic and are true warm edge spacers). These type spacers will help prevent the formation of condensation better than other popular spacer systems, and are available in window brands such as Simonton and Schuco to name a couple.

Confused_in_Northern_IL
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#4 Post by Confused_in_Northern_IL »

Thanks Window4u...we are slowly tweeking the Aprilaire to achieve the best humidity level. Our windows have accordian-style blinds and nothing else. Generally the only time they are closed is at night.

Do you have any comments regarding the approach to replacing the windows - either replacement (keep existing frames) or new construction (completly remove old window and replace with complete)? It would seem to us that the best fit and longevity would be via the 'new construction' approach. Do you have any experience with either?

XSleeper
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#5 Post by XSleeper »

IMO, doing a retrofit inside old Marvin windows would really lose a lot of glass area, as you mentioned. For that reason alone, I'd opt for a new construction installation. You will have to deal with new trim on the interior/exterior, but a better install, IMHO- esp. on the multiple lite units.

Confused_in_Northern_IL
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#6 Post by Confused_in_Northern_IL »

Thanks Xsleeper. Yes, the loss of window will all ready be about 1/2" all the way around just because of the vinyl configuration rather than the wood we currently have. To lose even more due to the installation approach would be very disappointing. However, it seems most customers and/or installers take the retrofit approach.

JScott
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#7 Post by JScott »

Why don't you just replace the sashes with Marvin sashes with a better glass package and replace the weatherstripping?

Confused_in_Northern_IL
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#8 Post by Confused_in_Northern_IL »

That's a good thought.... Unfortunately, we have one window (east) that has rotted and the rest all need some TLC due to the water-staining of the wood (non-sash area). Even though we prefer the look of wood, we want to get away from the maintenance of wood windows.

FenEx
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#9 Post by FenEx »

The first step to address your condensation would be to control your humidity, Try this calculator or any other online:
http://www.abc15.com/weather/wow/index. ... point.html

When you enter your temperature and relative humidity, it will give you the dew point or air/surface temperature at which condensation will form. You can avoid this by either raising the surface temperature (glass) above the dew point or lower the dew point by decreasing the humidity.

To maximize your glass, you should go with the full-frame install. The woodgrain screen frames you like will greatly limit your options. Using a product that boasts double-pane, low-e does not guaranty a resolution. I have photos I can post of brand new units that not only have condensation at the edges of glass on the interior... but ice.

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Window4U (IL)
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#10 Post by Window4U (IL) »

Here are a couple photos I got from FenEx in an email showing ice formation around the "warm edge" spacer. Just curious, what brand were these FenEx?


Image
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FenEx
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#11 Post by FenEx »

Those are Alside Excalibur windows with the PPG Intercept and low-e/argon. They are less than 1 year old. Alside has told the customer that it's not their problem. Pretty sad. They ofcourse blame the humidity issue... but how do they excuse the interior ice?

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Window4U (IL)
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#12 Post by Window4U (IL) »

I noticed the Excalibur doesn't have crf numbers listed on the NFRC site, though some of their other higher end slider models have crf's from the low 40's to the mid 50's.
Considering many other brands of vinyl sliders have crf's in the mid-high 60's, it's no wonder you see these type problems with these lower end windows.

(crf=condensation resistance factor)
Last edited by Window4U (IL) on Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FenEx
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#13 Post by FenEx »

The worst part is, I tested these windows personally and they do indeed have Low-e, and supposedly are Argon filled. They came with NFRC and Energy Star labels. The consumer was assured energy efficiency and pitched heavily on the PPG Intercept "Warm-Edge" spacer abilities.

The only thing worse than doing nothing... is spending money and getting nothing, or atleast not what you were pitched and promised. The consumer of the aforementioned windows paid about $400 per unit installed. I was called out to inspect, prepare a report, and possibly provide expert testimony in a legal suit. What bothers me the most is the final statement made by the homeowner, an immigrant from Europe. "This is America, how can this be allowed to happen legally?

My response, "I'm very sorry, but this happens everyday."

researcher
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#14 Post by researcher »

I just would like to say that the wood windows i used to have had an aluminum spacer, no low-E, and no Argon, but they did not ice up like that unless it was very cold and the drapes were closed.

Our neighbor has Sunrise windows that uses the Intercept spacer, and those windows never iced up in 0 degree weather. The Sunrise windows has a condensation resistance of 54.

I would think that it may be possible to form ice on any spacer if it is very cold out and heavy drapes are keeped closed all night. Or is it not?

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Window4U (IL)
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#15 Post by Window4U (IL) »

Yes, you are correct Researcher.
Any window can get condensation or ice if given the right circumstances, especially if heavily covered by insulating drapes.

My comments have to do more with cheap design and why it translates to a lower performing window. We keep talking here about low grade, mid grade, and premium vinyl windows, but sometimes I guess we don't explain ourselves well enough why we have such low opinions of some of these products we keep "bashing" as cheaply made windows.
It's not because they take business away from us like some have suggested. It's because we have been around long enough and seen enough window nightmares to know what makes a good window and what doesn't.

I'm going to give just one of many examples of why I feel the Excalibur is lacking in quality design.
The first photo is of an Alside Excalibur sash. Notice how the removable exterior stop next to the glass has no insulating chamber next to the glass. Old style metal tube spacers have the metal exposed to the cold in the exposed glass area, where Intercept has the majority of the metal down inside the sash, which is why it is considered a "warm edge" spacer.The Intercept spacer relies on the sash warmth to help prevent cold from traveling all the way around to the inside of the glass, and this sash design provides very little insulation.


The second photo, is of the Ultramax (same brand). This window has an insulating chamber next to the glass which helps keep cold from traveling as easily to the spacer. Minor change in design, big results in how the spacer performs.
The Ultramax has problems of it's own, but at least in this comparison is much better designed in the sash than it's cheaper built sibling.

I sell some premium window brands with Intercept, and have had virtually no problems with condensation. But, combine Intercept with a poorly designed midgrade or lower window, and you are begging for problems.

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