The best "BIGGER" picture windows

[RACER X]

I have 3 bay window areas in my house. The setup is 3 large windows in the middle and 1 large window on both sides (5 windows total). I need the whole setup replaced but I want to do it differently. Both side windows will be replaced with duplicate sized vinyl replacements but instead of doing 3 replacements in the middle I want to do 1 large vinyl picture window.

My question is... structurally speaking, who manufactures a better BIGGER window? I would imagine that a nice strong frame is in order for bigger windows?

The biggest size I need is 75w. x 68h. The other 2 are slightly smaller.

[RACER X]

Oh... and should I be worried about matching the white vinyl frames if I go with double hungs from one manufacturer and a big picture window from another manufacture???????

[RACER X]

223 views. I suppose I'll start calling around. Thanks for reading.

[randy]

Sorry you were ignored, I hadn't seen the post prior to this.

First of all, if you live in the North, (extreme cold) and need triple pane windows, you probably won't find anyone to manufacture a window that large
(75 x 68). If all you need is double pane, that size shouldn't be a problem, since it is under 36 sq. ft.

Yes you need to be concerned about the color match with two different manufacturers. Before you split the brands, compare the colors to ensure a good match.

Good luck.

[crankthisout]

You will want a steel reinforced frame if possible. This will give you a structural grade of 50 or better on average. Look for a gold label on the side of the sash or in the header of the frame to see the rating.

As for the glass, anyone can give you a double pane. The highest R-value you'll see is a 4.1

If you can find a heat-mirror glass unit, then you can find glass with R-values up to 9.1 and these units can be made up to 35 square ft.

[RACER X]

crankthisout - I live near Chicago. I will definitely look for a steel reinforced frame... good one. Who tests the "structural rating" that you mentioned? Is it AAMA? and it sounds like a scale from 1 to 100. I live in a very tall house (vaulted ceilings) and it is very hard to heat in the winter- especially because all of my windows face noth and south. Will this "heat-mirror" glass unit block out any welcome solar gain? and what other uses does this heat mirror have?

randy - np- I guess it was at the bottom of the forum list. It is extremely cold this week! -12 today... yes that's a minus with wind chill. brrrr. I never thought about triple pane and it might sound expensive too. Double pane might do the trick (I think). I'll ask for swatches of vinyl to compare to the other new windows I had installed previously. Is 36 sq.ft. some kind of cut-off size for picture windows?

oh, and I'm assuming that windows this large are automatically tempered. right? Thanks again.

[randy]

Yes, 36 sq. ft. is the maximum size for most manufacturers, and tempered glass is usually required (more for shipping than anything else).

I think you may be making a big mistake going with double pane instead of triple, since you live in Chicago. The difference in U-Value between the two is substantial. Schuco and Simonton both make very good triple pane windows that will run circles around most double pane windows, in terms of efficiency. I think you'll find that Schuco windows aren't as expensive as you think, relative to the competition.

There are two regular pros here, Windows4U & FenEx, both of whom have forgotten more about windows than I know. Both guys service the Chicago area, and could be of more help than I, in advising you on the wisdom of triple vs. double.

[crankthisout]

Here is some more info on heat mirror units

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zht ... highlight=

[RACER X]

crankthisout,

Very nice link. It looks like Heat-Mirror is Low-E but I did see a picture on their website that looked like there is a film option- instead of coated- that serves as a middle pane. Is this tha e option your refering to? Interesting history on this technology. I'll have to look at it closer. Thank you so much for the information. Here is a quote from the web page.

"Heat Mirror was the first significant insulation improvement in glass in over 100 years, effectively doubling the R-value from 2 to 4. This innovation was recognized as one of the Top 100 Inventions of the Millennium by Popular Science magazine in 2000. Heat Mirror is a clear, polyester film with a 3-layer coating that transmits light, but reflects long-wave infrared energy. This innovative product launched the worldwide glass industry's investment into direct coating on glass - universally called low emissivity, or Low-e. Heat Mirror is sold today to window and door companies in 25 countries for installation into sealed insulating glass."

[Window4U (IL)]

Interesting history on this technology. I'll have to look at it closer.
"Heat Mirror was the first significant insulation improvement in glass in over 100 years, effectively doubling the R-value from 2 to 4. This innovation was recognized as one of the Top 100 Inventions of the Millennium by Popular Science magazine in 2000.

Heat Mirror indeed was a revolutionary new product when it came out. I was among the first salesmen in the country to get trained on it and sell it when it came out. I was a salesman for NuSash and we also sold Hurd, which both had it.

Before Heat Mirror, the only way the industry had to increase the insulation value of windows was to add extra panes to the IG unit in the window. Triple panes were introduced en mass in the late 70's in reaction to the energy crisis of the time. Some windows even came out with windows with 4 panes of glass. The extra pane of clear glass in the triple panes increased the R value from double panes which was an R2 to an unbelievable at the time R3. The downfall of the triple in those days were the now obsolete balance systems of the day that couldn't handle the extra weight, and increased seal failure rates.
In the early 80's, Heat Mirror was introduced and gave us a way to get an R4 with only the weight of two panes and this polester film suspended between the panes. It was either extra glass panes, or this new product Heat Mirror. We loved to sell it, and we sold a lot of it because of the competitive advantage it gave us over the competition.
Todays modern Low-E glass coatings came out a few years later.

Only years later did the discoloration and wrinkling of Heat Mirror start to show in great numbers. Companies such as NuSash, Hurd, and 4 Seasons Sunrooms all had huge problems with it and most people who witnessed and had to deal with the horrible problems will never sell it again, even with the much better current track record the product enjoys.
It's the old "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" reasoning I guess.

I won't sell it in great numbers again, ...but many here do with absolutely no problems.

[RACER X]

Window4U,

I see you have a lot of history here. Let me ask you something... is it preferable to have a suspended heat-mirror window vs todays Low-E coating alone? This can be applied to my original question about large picture windows. The biggest size I need is 75w. x 68h. The other 2 are slightly smaller. Also, what is your personal preference- which manufacturer(s) would you recommend for my situation? I know people here like Schuco and Simonton are there any others you like?

Thanks again for all your help.

[Window4U (IL)]

Window4U,
I see you have a lot of history here. Let me ask you something... is it preferable to have a suspended heat-mirror window vs todays Low-E coating alone?

I have windows with Heat Mirror available, but prefer to go with double paned Low-E with Krypton in most all cases when the window is oversized.

Besides the reasons I said before, let me explain another reason why. The brand I sell the most, Schuco, doesn't make triple in picture windows over 115 UI because of the size limitations of the triple pane manufacturing equipment. The TPS seal is applied in a hot melt condition around the perimeter of the glass at 450 degrees and then the 3 panes of glass are put together by robotic equipment inside a krypton filled sealed chamber. This gives the glass unit as close to a 100% fill as possible without compromising the integrity of the seal like other methods. The size of this chamber is why Schuco does not make very large triple pane picture windows.
When I do jobs with Schuco picture windows over that size, I give my customers double pane low-e with krypton instead, which is made at a different location. The krypton doesn't add as much advantage to double panes as it does to the triple panes over what argon gives you, but the price I get from Schuco for the krypton add-on is negligible, so anything I can do to get the best u-value for my customers I do. Even with double pane, the Schuco picture windows are still a U-.26 which is still real good and not much different than the .21 the triple pane doublehungs have. I find the Schuco triple more affordable than the Heat Mirror windows as well. Here in our local market a person can get Schuco for less than most of the competition sells doublepane junk, let alone windows with Heat Mirror.

A couple hundreths of a u-value point is not going to make a big difference. I would focus on choosing a good brand for your whole home and not worry about just the one window.

[JScott]

Also keep in mind that newer coatings are giving great U values in double pane. AFG has one tri-AC40 something or another with a U value @0.24 and the Cardinal 366 coating with similar values(0.27 plus or minus- forgive my memory). AFG is basically only targeting commercial application until all 7 plants have the capability to produce. Cardinal 366 is available even from Republic which is in your backyard. What I like with these coatings is the increased visibility (the glass is not as dark). Go to the cardinal webpage and check out the 366 product. This is not an endorsement for Republic. The cost will be roughly $1 per square foot above lowE from one of my manufacturers.

[InfoSponge]

Milgard still seems to claim that the 366 "SunCoatMAX" is exclusive to them, but you are right that it doesn't look that way anymore. Cardinal 366 with Argon has a u-factor of .24, according to their web site, but that is a center of glass measurement (which isn't heinous for an IGU manufacturer to quote). I'm guessing that the whole-window u-factor with 366 won't drop more than .01 compared to normal LowE2 coatings, but I haven't looked up any numbers. If anyone has a reference to NFRC certified u-factors for the same window with LowE2 and 366, I'd love to learn more. To be fair, I guess the real benefits to Cardinal 366 aren't as much in the u-factor.

The new PPG Solarban 70XL looks to have numbers fairly close to Cardinal 366.