new windows have condensation

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nj window buyer
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:47 pm

new windows have condensation

#1 Post by nj window buyer »

OK I am Pissed.. :evil: :evil:
I just had put in
Kensington windows Huntington Model R-value 9.00
Low-e Krypton (Energy Starr Approved)
Heat Mirror (Good House Keeping Approval)
Super K 909
7/8 Double insulated glass
Double Strength glass
Double Locks (over 28inches)
100% virgin vinyl
Foam filled jambs and sashes
I have condensation on the inside of the windows on the bottom. Mostly in the corners. I am aware that I may have high hummidity but aren't my new windows supposed prevent this??

I feel like i was ripped off...

Stuff like this is always happening to me and it isn't like I can return the windows.

Please suggest what I should do.

PS I bought at humidity thermomitor and it needs to regulate so I can't wait to see what it says


Please write all comments..

thank you in advance

windowmannjny

#2 Post by windowmannjny »

dont worry njwindowbuyer, from whom did you purchase the windows and installation? was this triple pane (im assuming)

nj window buyer
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:47 pm

hi

#3 Post by nj window buyer »

windowmannjny wrote:dont worry njwindowbuyer, from whom did you purchase the windows and installation? was this triple pane (im assuming)
they are
Kensington windows Huntington Model R-value 9.00
Low-e Krypton (Energy Starr Approved)
Heat Mirror (Good House Keeping Approval)
Super K 909
7/8 Double insulated glass
Double Strength glass
Double Locks (over 28inches)
100% virgin vinyl
Foam filled jambs and sashes

I am very worried
Last edited by nj window buyer on Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

XSleeper
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:57 pm

#4 Post by XSleeper »

If I may, I'll insert a link to this web site's sister board, where this topic was vividly discussed:

http://www.replacement-windows.com/wind ... highlight=

You will always get some condensation on glass during cold weather, even if it is triple-pane. Anyone who tells you different is blowing smoke. Your mirror fogs up when you take a shower, but there's nothing wrong with the mirror- it's just that the conditions are right for it.

Triple glass would have been a better choice, since it likely has a better u-value. But at this point, do what you can to lower your humidity and move air. Keeping curtains and blinds open (not closed) will also help warm the glass so as to avoid condensation. The nice thing about vinyl windows is that a little moisture on the glass won't hurt anything, unlike wood windows.

Guy
Posts: 250
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:10 pm
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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#5 Post by Guy »

I hate to go against the grain Xsleeper and mean no disrespect in any way, but your comment
You will always get some condensation on glass during cold weather, even if it is triple-pane. Anyone who tells you different is blowing smoke.
is misleading.

Windows will get condensation on them if they are by hot water areas such as the Kitchen or Bathroom area's. If the home has proper venting to the outside it will be very minimal if the fan is on during showers, baths and washing the dishes. In general there should be no condensation on a triple glazed window at any other time. Another way to get condensation is pulling the blinds or shades down during the evening. This will block any air flow to the glass and condensation will form on some windows. People just need to learn to open there blinds and shades during the cold season every morning to let the window get heat circulation.

I work and live in MN and have no condensation on any of my windows except the windows in our bathrooms during a bath or shower. Otherwise my windows are condensation free.

There are a couple things to look for on condensation. I'll have to leave for now, but I'll post back later on these issues.

XSleeper
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:57 pm

#6 Post by XSleeper »

No offense taken! Being from Nebraska, we also get our share of cold weather. It was -20F the other day when I left for work! And you are right, now that I re-read my post, I almost sounded like condensation was to be expected or something. What I should have said is that no window salesman can guarantee that triple pane windows will never get condensation on them. The reason being, he cannot control the humidity in the home, and he cannot break the laws of physics. If the conditions are right, condensation will occur.

When the poster said, "aren't my new windows supposed prevent this??" it made me think... "not necessarily."

It's kind of like saying... I got new windows and my gas bill was still $500- aren't my new windows supposed to prevent this?" There are obviously other factors involved than JUST the windows... or even they type of glass. (and it's noted that he did not purchase the best glass package available).

Many homes (like yours) are not humid and have no problems. But for those homes that do have humidity problems, triple pane glass is not going to solve the problem all by itself. Other steps must be taken, and that is what I was alluding to in the rest of the post... things that could be done to reduce condensation. If the edge of glass temperature reaches the dew point, there will be condensation.

I don't have condensation on any of the windows in my house either, but we have installed windows in some houses where a small amount of sweat collects above ledges, and even recently worked in one home where the moisture was unbelievable- the house felt like a sauna and the windows had water running down them. But that is certainly an exception to what is the norm.

I'll look forward to your comments on the subject.

nj window buyer
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:47 pm

#7 Post by nj window buyer »

thanks for all your replys and I look forward to learning more.
I totally get the science part of what is happening. the humidity level over the past 2 days has been between 36-40 Is that to high?

Oberon
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:57 pm

condensation

#8 Post by Oberon »

Okay - here's the long version of what Guy and XSleeper have so well put in short version - as they both know, I am verbose - and what they can say very well and clearly in short version, I can certainly muddle in much longer version - but, hope this helps a bit!

And as an aside, I have posted similar versions of this one before, but when you make them this long, it is nice to keep them around so that you don't have to do it over again! :shock: :?

The reason why there is condensation or frost or ice on the interior of your interior window or storm window has a rather simple explanation – the surface temperature of the window is below the dew point temperature of the air in your home…that’s it…a very simple explanation.

Unfortunately, the explanation as to why the surface temperature of your window (glass) is below the dew point temperature of the air in your home may be a bit more complex – so I am going to offer a few thoughts and maybe even throw in a few numbers that I hope might help your situation.

In the summer, when you pull something cold and refreshing out of the refrigerator, and the air is warm and humid, that cold and refreshing beverage container suddenly and quite magically becomes instantly wet – just as soon as it is exposed to the air. What has happened is that the temperature of the container fresh from the refrigerator is below the dew point temperature of the air – which has caused condensation on the outside of that container.

What happens to your windows in the fall and winter is that the surface of the glass is below the dew point temperature of the air in your home – which is causing condensation on the surface of that glass.

Dew point is defined as saturation vapor density...or put in simpler terms, when the air reaches 100% relative humidity and can hold no more moisture.

Relative humidity is, well, relative.

Relative humidity is a comparison of the actual vapor density versus the saturation vapor density at a particular temperature. Put a bit more simply, dew point is 100% relative humidity or the point where the air - at that temperature - is no longer able to hold any more moisture. If the air has reached vapor saturation (100% relative humidity), then the air will release moisture...be it on the outside of that cold beverage container in the summer time, or be it on the interior glass surface of your windows in the winter time, it makes no difference. If the surface temperature happens to be below freezing, then that moisture becomes frost or even ice.

In order to stop condensation from forming on the surface of a window, you either have to lower the dew point temperature of the air in your home to a level below the dew point temperature of the window surface, or you have to warm up the window surface to a temperature above the dew point temperature of your home, or a combination of both.

Lowering the relative humidity of the air in your home may have absolutely no effect on controlling window condensation or it may also solve your problem – depending on how you lower the relative humidity and what affect the “how” has on both the moisture level of your air and the temperature of your windows

All this because there are two ways to lower relative humidity – first, you can increase the air temperature in your home or second, you can decrease the moisture content of the air in your home.

By increasing the air temperature in your home you will lower the relative humidity but you will not change the dew point – which is based on the amount of water vapor in the air and is not based on the temperature of the air. So, while the RH is lower with higher air temperature, it may not effect condensation on window surfaces at all – unless the rise in air temperature also caused a corresponding rise in window glass temperature to a level above the dew point temperature.

But, lowering the amount of water vapor or moisture in your air will lower the dew point temperature as well. And if it lowers the dew point temperature sufficiently to drop it below the temperature of your window glass – no more condensation issues.

The amount of moisture in the air is measured in grams per cubic meter, which is kind of nice for our metric folks but not so nice for our non-metric folks; but the metric version is much easier on the calculator than the English version. However, in the interest of making this stuff easier to understand for all of us non-metric types, I am going to use Fahrenheit rather than Celsius temperatures in the calculations.

Okay – consider your home at 65 degrees F and with a relative humidity reading of 40%. There are 6.25 grams of water in a cubic meter of air in your home in that particular scenario - which then equates to a dew point temperature of 38 degrees F. So at 38 degrees the air will be at 100% relative humidity or at saturation vapor density.

Now, if your neighbor keeps her house at 75 degrees, but she also has 6.25 grams of water per cubic meter in her air, then the relative humidity in her home is 29% - versus your 40%. But, and here’s the kicker, the dew point temperature in her home is still 38 degrees.

While the relative humidity in her home is much lower than is the relative humidity in yours; if the surface temperature of the windows in her home is 35 degrees she will have condensation on those windows…yet if the surface temperature of your windows is 40 degrees – only five degrees warmer – you will not have condensation on your windows.

So, while her handy humidity gauge reads (correctly) only 29% RH – she has a condensation problem.
While your handy humidity gauge reads (correctly) 40% RH – you don’t have a condensation problem…SWEET…well, for you anyway, not her.

If your home hygrometer measures the relative humidity in your home at 60% while the temperature of your home is 70 degrees, you will have a dew point temperature of about 51 degrees – meaning that if the temperature of the window surface is below 51 degrees then you will have condensation - so now we talk a little more specifically about windows.

The interior surface temperature of a single lite of glass, when the temperature outside is 0 degrees F and the inside air temperature is 70 degrees, will be about 16 degrees.

Add a storm window on the outside and the surface temperature of the inside lite jumps up to about 43 degrees – a huge improvement.

But these are center-of-glass readings and not the temperature readings at the edge of the window where condensation usually forms. A typical clear glass dual pane window is going to have center-of-glass temperature reading pretty much the same as a single pane with a storm – something that is often claimed (correctly) by folks who advocate refurbishing windows rather than replacing (something that I am not going into here – I am NOT advocating either replacement or restoration in this post. It is long enough and detailed enough already without opening that particular can-of-worms!)…

However, if that dual pane has a LowE coating and an argon gas infill then the center-of-glass temperature will be about 57 degrees – a 14 degree improvement over a clear glass dual pane or a single pane with storm window – but again, and more importantly, there will be a comparable edge of glass improvement as well, particularly if the IGU (Insulating Glass Unit) was manufactured using a warm edge spacer system. Also, the dual pane is going to have desiccant between the glass layers. Desiccant absorbs moisture keeping the inside of the dual pane system very dry.

The advantage? If it gets cold enough outside, the temperature in the airspace between the lites can get very low. By keeping that space dry, it helps to keep the dew point temperature very low as well; something not always possible when using a single pane and storm window.

Although a single pane with a good and tight storm window can help the interior lite to avoid condensation (when compared with a single lite and no storm), the storm window itself will frost up when the temperature is low enough – at a temperature usually well above the temperature that will cause the dual pane to ice up. It is unavoidable given the right circumstances

So what does a window temperature of 57 degrees mean? Well, as I mentioned earlier a home kept at 70 degrees with a 60% relative humidity has a dew point temperature of 51 degrees so it is much less likely that there will be condensation problem on those particular windows than there would be with a less energy efficient window - despite the relatively high relative humidity in the home.

But, there is always a "but".

Again, that 57 degree glass temperature is still a center-of-glass reading and the edge of glass temperature will be lower - actual temperature is dependent on both the spacer system used in the IG unit construction and on the material used to construct the sash. So even with a "57 degree" center-of-glass temperature it is still possible to get window condensation if there is enough moisture in the air.

And, what happens to the dew point if you keep your home at 70 degrees and you have a 65% relative humidity? Well, for one thing the dew point has jumped up to 57 degrees which we have already noted is the same as the window temperature. For another thing, anyone with 65% relative humidity in a home at 70 degrees has way too much moisture in their air and they are in serious need of some sort of ventilation system – or at least several good exhaust fans!

This last scenario sounds like the home that was mentioned in the earlier post that had water running down the windows because it was so humid in there.

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