installation and brand questions

[muscat]

I found this site last week, and it has already taught me so much! Sorry if these questions are repetitive; I did not find obvious answers in old posts, so here goes:

For now I'm replacing just one window (6' wide,3'tall) as part of a kitchen remodel. I have stucco exteriors. I do not have a contractor, so all the leg work falls to me. I have had 4 quotes, and narrowed my choices down to three already. I found all 4 companies through Angies List:

1.Anderson Renewal, $1400-1500! (Not going to do this )
2.VPI Galaxy series, $695 (would have been $575, but he says I need tempered glass)
3.Milgard (forgot which!) $525- not tempered glass. He said he'd
4.Mercer, $500- this was a phone quote- he'll come out for something more specific.

This window is 1 ft from an exterior door leading onto a screened in patio. The Anderson guy said I could get away without tempered glass, since the door was just a "patio door." The VPI guy said I do need tempered glass- it is code. The Milgard guy said that I dont, since "I dont have tempered glass now, right?" I questioned this logic, and he said he'd get back to me....The house is about 50 years old! I doubt anything fits current code! The Mercer rep was not sure from my description if I need tempering or not, but said it should not affect the price that much if I do.

So, do I need tempered glass 1 foot away from a patio door? I found an old thread here that would support that I do, but if so, why am I getting mixed answers from these guys? And is a $120 difference (between tempering and not) reasonable?
Anyone able to comment on the comparative quality of these brands?

And, lastly, is "jumping the frame" synonymous with retrofitting, or is it a type of retrofit, and are there other ways?

I felt the most comfortable with the VPI guy, so as long as he's not pulling my leg with the tempered glass issue, I'll likely go with him. I was more inclined toward the Milgard until the tempered glass question came up.

[randy]

The window will need to have tempered glass, and $120.00 additional cost is quite reasonable for that large of a window.

Jumping the frame refers to removing the sashes of the old window, without pulling out the frame, and then installing the new window within the old frame. This method enables the contractor to avoid disturbing the stucco exterior of your home, and it is a very common procedure in the Western part of the U.S. They will typically use a window with a Z-flange to cover the old frame.

I really don't know anything about the VPI window, or the Mercer window. Milgard products are mid-range, with their benefit being factory service personnel.

[JScott]

Randy is 100% correct. As to the tempering issue, the cost is in line. The code I have read states...within 2 ft from the swing of a door...If this is a slider and not a swing door the language indicates it may not applicable in your situation on this specific area of the code; HOWEVER, check with your local building permit folks. The responses you received about the need for tempering should let you know if a company is trying to improve your home or just sell you a window.

[muscat]

Thanks, guys. I'm pretty fully confused now, as I have now had *4* people come over, one guy saying I need tempering, two saying I absolutely do not, and one guy saying that technically I might but that he doesnt think it applies to my room strongly enough to say I have to. My uncle, a home inspector, thinks that I dont.

I thought that replacing the window was going to be the easiest part of the kitchen remodeling project. Getting frustrated....

[Skydawggy]

Definitely check out the local codes yourself. As an example in Virginia the code on temperiing is as follows:

1. The bottom edge of the window must be within 18" of the floor,

and

2.Must be greater than 9 sq. ft. If it is a Double Hung the lower sash is the only part applicable,

and

3. Must be closer than 36" from a walkway/patio/ door/stairway/

and

4. The top edge of the glass must be greater than 36 inches from the floor.

In order for tempered glass to be required by code, it must meet all 4 criteria

My advice is if there is any chance that someone could fall into the window and be cut, I'd demand they use tempered glass.

[RVEXLER]

You didn't mention where you live. In theory each building jurisdiction can set their own tempering codes. My guess is that it needs to be tempered. But for your reference, here are the relevant sections of the 03' IRC section R308.4 which deal with "hazardous locations"

6. Glazing, in an individual fixed or operable panel adjacent to a door where the nearest vertical edge is within a 24-inch (610 mm) arc of the door in a closed position and whose bottom edge is less than 60 inches (1524 mm) above the floor or walking surface.

There are two exceptions:

3. Glazing in Section R308.4, Item 6, when there is an intervening wall or other permanent barrier between the door and the glazing.
- - 4. Glazing in Section R308.4, Item 6, in walls perpendicular to the plane of the door in a closed position or where access through the door is to a closet or storage area 3 feet (914 mm) or less in depth. Glazing in these applications shall comply with Section R308.4, Item 7.

[muscat]

Thanks everyone! I decided to go with tempered, even though there were contractors who seemed not to care at all about tempering, I think they were just lowballing the estimate. One of them who was going to "check the code" and call me back never did and when I told the other one I had looked up the code myself, and was more comfortable going with someone else who recognized code, he just said "ok" and that was the end of the conversation.