leaking Milgard replacement windows
Hammer on it!!
Seen a lot of different installs, I did know a guy who would hammer on the lower drip flanges..If ya don't carry a cutter, then you have to bang on those..which will still break the moisture barrier..which most don't recommend it seems...but its a serious hack who is hammering down the old aluminum flanges....sorry to hear.
And so it continues....
I am the original poster for this topic....here is the update
It is now 4/06, nearly 3 years after the install. We don't get heavy rain in so CA, but nearly every time a window leaks. Same contractor comes back out to lather it up with more caulk.
Finally, had enough and called out some AAMA certified guys to check over the work. They were dumbfouned. Turns out he used silcone to seal (a no-no according to Migard), caulked in the entire bottom of retro without allowing for weep hole clearance, used wrong kind of screws, often too close to welds, on and on. They said they could save the windows, but would rip each one out, scrape off the old crap and do over. Estimate: $9K to fix 18 windows, but they would not warranty since it is a patch job on a sinking ship, so to speak.
Blew a gasket w/contractor, and told him the above findings....he then actually tried to blame me for trying to go cheap with retro option. "Of course, they are going to say it was done incorrectly," he said, "they want to sell you the repair job." I suggested we get a Milgard rep (third party) to meet us both and confirm install was less than brilliant.
Today that occurred. Milgard rep told him same stuff, and said all his caulking on the outer "cosmetic" seal wouldn't end the issue, especially since silicone on primary seal will either stick to old aluminum frame or vinyl retro---but not both. I suggested that since gluejob is probably bad on all, they all need to be torn out, maybe easier to just go with new construction on all at this point.
questions:
1)Would you ever let this guy try to fix this -- either keeping the retro, or installing new windows? (his new construction windows haven't given us problems, besides a few cosmetic slip-ups)
2)If I did decide to go with new construction at this point, who should pay for what?
Thanks for reading!
It is now 4/06, nearly 3 years after the install. We don't get heavy rain in so CA, but nearly every time a window leaks. Same contractor comes back out to lather it up with more caulk.
Finally, had enough and called out some AAMA certified guys to check over the work. They were dumbfouned. Turns out he used silcone to seal (a no-no according to Migard), caulked in the entire bottom of retro without allowing for weep hole clearance, used wrong kind of screws, often too close to welds, on and on. They said they could save the windows, but would rip each one out, scrape off the old crap and do over. Estimate: $9K to fix 18 windows, but they would not warranty since it is a patch job on a sinking ship, so to speak.
Blew a gasket w/contractor, and told him the above findings....he then actually tried to blame me for trying to go cheap with retro option. "Of course, they are going to say it was done incorrectly," he said, "they want to sell you the repair job." I suggested we get a Milgard rep (third party) to meet us both and confirm install was less than brilliant.
Today that occurred. Milgard rep told him same stuff, and said all his caulking on the outer "cosmetic" seal wouldn't end the issue, especially since silicone on primary seal will either stick to old aluminum frame or vinyl retro---but not both. I suggested that since gluejob is probably bad on all, they all need to be torn out, maybe easier to just go with new construction on all at this point.
questions:
1)Would you ever let this guy try to fix this -- either keeping the retro, or installing new windows? (his new construction windows haven't given us problems, besides a few cosmetic slip-ups)
2)If I did decide to go with new construction at this point, who should pay for what?
Thanks for reading!
Contractors can't afford bad publicity like this. I can understand your reluctance to let him come near your home, but I think I would at least give him the opportunity to make it right, now that you all know what right looks like.
See if you can get a copy of the AAMA 2400 install brochure from Milgard for the new construction part and copies of the section out of the Installation Masters book (chapter 15) that details the replacement method that applies to your circumstance.
I am in Oregon and homeowners are required to give the contractor the right to repair before they can start any litigation at all. You haven't mentioned going that direction, but I think if they don't take care of you this time, or they do and it fails again, you absolutely ahve grounds!
Have an independent party come out and witness, even video, the contractor and his remedies. He will make it right under those circumstances. Or you can make his life hell!
See if you can get a copy of the AAMA 2400 install brochure from Milgard for the new construction part and copies of the section out of the Installation Masters book (chapter 15) that details the replacement method that applies to your circumstance.
I am in Oregon and homeowners are required to give the contractor the right to repair before they can start any litigation at all. You haven't mentioned going that direction, but I think if they don't take care of you this time, or they do and it fails again, you absolutely ahve grounds!
Have an independent party come out and witness, even video, the contractor and his remedies. He will make it right under those circumstances. Or you can make his life hell!
Re: leaking....pulling frames.....
What about cutting but NOT removing the frame? In other words leaving the frame in place, but just cutting the extruding frame parts? Sort of using a reciprocating saw parrallel to the window frame cutting the 1/2 inch of frame to give a larger opening.BayCityWindows wrote:Yes Pulling the frame for a "retrofit" installation will leak eventually, sometimes immediately.
To install in stucco without pulling the frames, is called "RETROFIT"
I know this will only give me an extra 1/2 inch at best all around, but my question is will this create a leak problem?
I am just a home owner with a good amount of common sense and I must agree. If the windows are correctly caulk all the way around, there is no way for water to get in, unless there is some magic involved.Profx wrote:I can't argue with AAMA standards if that's what it states should be done. I'm sure I have 7-8 yr. old windows out there done by the method I previously described and yet no problems, if the caulk is maintained every few years, there will be no problems. .
Also, a guy by the name of John Rocco who I bought an instructional Retrofit vinyl installation DVD's from (how to install vinyl retro fit windows), agrees with you. Rocco never leaves the bottom open not even the little holes. His theory (which I agree with) is that water should never be getting in there in the first place.
If you google for "John Rocco vinyl windows", you will find lots of articles he has written.
I have yet to see a retrofit install done to aama 2410-03 standards. this standard addresses windows with an exterior flush fin over existing aluminum or steel window frame.
paragraph 6.4.1 says to verify retro window will cover exterior of pre-existing window frame. if you look at installs done in the San Francisco bay area, sacramento and in between you'll see many vinyl retrofit installs were the old aluminum frame is still visible and there is gaps between the new and old frame. this creates a potential area for water to leak and pool around the window.
paragraph 6.4.4 says to ensure the frame will be well supported along its base to prevent sill rotation or distortion. figure 4 shows blocking the pre-existing frame track and the sill adjacent to the existing frame to provide proper support. Many of our manufacturers reps admit that nobody takes the time to do this. when you consider window sizes and variations between the interior finish and pre-existing frame cutting shim blocks will vary from one window to the next. very time consuming.
paragraph 6.4.1 says to verify retro window will cover exterior of pre-existing window frame. if you look at installs done in the San Francisco bay area, sacramento and in between you'll see many vinyl retrofit installs were the old aluminum frame is still visible and there is gaps between the new and old frame. this creates a potential area for water to leak and pool around the window.
paragraph 6.4.4 says to ensure the frame will be well supported along its base to prevent sill rotation or distortion. figure 4 shows blocking the pre-existing frame track and the sill adjacent to the existing frame to provide proper support. Many of our manufacturers reps admit that nobody takes the time to do this. when you consider window sizes and variations between the interior finish and pre-existing frame cutting shim blocks will vary from one window to the next. very time consuming.
Yes, it is very time consuming which was my point as to why contractors who install these windows don't do it. They make up reasons for not doing.kris wrote:very time consuming.
If you leave enough of the original aluminum frame to caulk unto, and as long as you cut it without breaking the frame ( aluminum is very easy to cut), then you get best of both worlds - a larger window with less frame showing.
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