leaking Milgard replacement windows

[steveo33]

Any pros that can offer advice is appreciated:

In 2003 we had Milgard replacement windows installed, the front of the house were new construction; the back used retrofits. Once the rainy 2003 season hit (we live in so Cal) we had our first leak on one window.
Contractor comes out, adds a boatload of caulk and leaves.

Huge rainy season 2005 hits and we have now 5 or so retros leaking.
Some were in torrents that required buckets. Some just show peeling paint around the frame, so we can assume dripping in behind his finished wood trim. Contractor comes out for 10 minutes with more caulk and the disclaimer: we're having more rain than ever, the stucco is saturated....blah blah blah. In other words, it's to be expected. He also said the patio cover was a suspect above 2 of the leaking windows. "Sometimes when a house shifts, it can pop that stucco seal" was another excuse.

Now this is only happening on the retros, and I recall a strange thing happening when they were installing them. They were pounding down the original window metal frames with hammers on every retro, I guess in order for the new windows to fit. I recall reading somewhere the original metal frame was the watertight seal that needed to be left intact for the retrofit concept to work, no? Could it be he mismeasured and had to compensate by destroying the frames, or is this normal? And by destroying the frames, did they destroy the watertight seal?

Thanks for your advice!

He has not really been following up anymore, I guess hoping we go away.

[E-Z]

Sorry to hear about your problem.

I personally do not like to beat frames to retrofit windows as you obviously create problems instead of fixing them. Some existing aluminum windows were not welded at the miters. In fact a lot of existing windows were butt jointed with only 2 screws and a dab of silicone to create a sill. If you beat the frame in you break the seal and then the retrofit method becomes a trap for the water instead of doing what its supposed to which is to use the seal of the existing wqindow to keep the water away.

What you can do.

First: look at your contract and see what was written down as far as craftmanship warranty. in California by law a Contractor must warrant his job by a minimum of 1 year, however if they wrote a longer warranty on the contract they must honor it.

Second: If i had to find a solution i would break around 2" above the top flange. peel up the black paper put a Z Bar flange under the flashing paper and over the window fin and re stucco it. The aluminum would only show about 1/2" only and it would fix your leak.

Third : Call your contractor and keep on calling him. If he ignores you and becomes a deadbeat complain with the CSLB http://www.cslb.ca.gov

Complaint with the http://www.bbb.com

Call his mama, call your senator, call his baby mama,call his aunty,
show up at his church. Call the media, become the biggest pain in the A$$ he has ever had...........................

..............whoa got carried away there for a minute but my point is do not give up you have recourses. If you want me to blueprint you a fix send me your fax and i can draw you a fix to stop the leaks

Good luck.

E-z
www.eazywindows.com

[Melissa]

You are completely correct. For a retrofit, the original frame NEEDS to be left intact in it's orignial position. When pounding on the frame, they broke the seal. Sounds like they ordered the wrong size window and instead of fessing up, they mickey-moused the job to get your money. Schmucks. You need to file a BBB complaint (Better Business Bureau) and have someone contact the company, who should either give you your money back, or completely remove the retro windows and fix the seal, or replace with new construction. If it were me, I would not want them touching my house again, since when they come back, they will already be ticked off about losing money.

I'm sorry for the headache. Those of us with good reputations in the construction industry fight every day against the bad reputation caused by knuckleheads like that.

Hope this helps.

[handyman19619]

I completely remove window frames in stucco all the time and never have any problems.
I cant see doing it any other way. If the window is trimed right on the exterior and a quality caulk is used you should have no problems.
Tear off the exterior trim they put on and see whats going on and then give them a call . Service guy wont have a choice but to re do the exterior under your supervision.
If any of you sales people can tell me how to install a window in stucco without removing a frame Id be glad to listen better yet send me pictures of you doing it instead of just quoting what youve been told and preaching it as gospel.

[Melissa]

one last comment, then I am leaving this website alone for good. I said "for a retrofit replacement", the frame needs to be left intact. For a new construction replacement, of course you will take the frame out! There are plenty of good reasons to do a new construction installation and a right way of doing it, like the last guy said. If it is done right, there should be no problems with either application. Of course I also need to point out to the last guy that I was not insulting him personally, I do not think I am "preaching the gospel" and no, I will not send pictures of myself. Wow, take a pill.

[BayCityWindows]

Yes Pulling the frame for a "retrofit" installation will leak eventually, sometimes immediately.

To install in stucco without pulling the frames, is called "RETROFIT"

it means that the "moisture barrier" and window frame remain intact, the new windows simply slide in over the old frame, but MUST be supported by a solid wood block underneath to prevent "sagging" which would occur if you only rested on the thin aluminum rail of the old window frame (a lot of companies still do it and some companies still "retrofit" patio doors).
In the stone ages many did, all leaked, all will leak.

And YES he mis-measured.

Sliding Doors must be installed "new construction" or "nail-on", they are too heavy for retro

They used to believe that leeches were good medicine

[Norb]

Was the installer certified by AAMA InstallationMasters for Windows and Doors? If yes, report them to (717) 764-7700. If not, find someone in your area that has taken the certified training couse for window installation and/or hire a construction attorney or forensics architect who is certified for windows and doors.

[Profx]

I'm Going to have to agree with handyman, on 90% of aluminum windows you're talking a frame depth of max 1 3/8 - 1 1/2", which sits on the exterior of the opening. Baycity win. are you saying to sit the window on that frame and shim with a block underneath. You would have to cut back probably 2" on width and height. And how would you cap the window in that situation. Like Handyman I've replaced several windows in stucco, and yes if you want it done right 9 times out of 10 you pull the frame, set the window in jamb to jamb about 1" in from the exterior, take you some tapcons, put up some sort of exterior moulding, cap it , and seal it well. I've never had a callback or complaint with that method.

[BayCityWindows]

Wheew! Glad I'm not one of your victims.
We install according AAMA standards for a RETROFIT installation.
http://www.installationmastersusa.com/Certified.htm
We fix those types of installation quite often.
There are good reasons for installation standards.

If you measure correctly, the new retrofit windows slide right in over the existing frame.

If you take a "retrofit" window (with a z-bar flange) and pull the frame to make it fit, you are installing retrofit windows in a way they were NOT meant to be installed, that would be a "nail-on" or new construction style of installation.
If indeed you are installing windows that way and haven't heard about any leaks, I wonder what is the oldest install you have? 3 years maybe 6.
How long do you think it takes for a homeowner to realize that water has been seaping into the frame of their home around their windows? (its not 100 gallons)
Do you think that the water immediately finds its way to the sheetrock and starts browning it? think again TERMITE PARADISE!
This is why there are LICENSES required and TRAINING necessary, so we don't have a bunch of "handymen" doing the best they know how, preying on the people least able to afford their mistakes, the people shopping to save a few bucks.
READ a frickin book would ya?
This ain't rocket science
I am not an AAMA instructor so teaching you how to install correctly would be challenging to say the least, but one commonly known fact is that pulling the frames and retrofitting windows is WRONG

http://www.installationmastersusa.com/P ... tation.ppt
Here is a couple of examples of correct installation, new construction style.
(notice the Nail-Fin instead of the Retro-Flange)
http://www.installationmastersusa.com/P ... tation.ppt
This presentation outlines the benefits of becoming certified.

Quite often what happens is this, The homeowner finding a leak or indication of a possible leak contacts the Manufacturer of the window, who sends out one of their maintenance guys to inspect, usually once they find the windows were installed incorrectly they tell you why you don't have a warranty anymore, but they will fix it for a price, they highly recommend against contacting the original installer, because they didn't do it right in the first place, so why would you call them to try to fix something they obviously don't quite understand. I have seen cases where Milgard has re-installed a customer's windows for them, which re-validated their warranty. (very rare)

HOMEOWNERS:READ THE WARRANTY regarding PROPER INSTALLATION.
If your windows aren't installed correctly, the manufacture has a way out of covering any problems you may have.

Did you know... You can shift the gears in your car without using the clutch.... that's not how WE do it, because it will EVENTUALLY mess up the gears, not maybe, EVENTUALLY

[BayCityWindows]

If you need more proof, re-read his post, his windows are leaking, he is LUCKY to find out before he is infested with termites and dry-rot.

[Profx]

I can't argue with AAMA standards if that's what it states should be done. I'm sure I have 7-8 yr. old windows out there done by the method I previously described and yet no problems, if the caulk is maintained every few years, there will be no problems. You talk of a retrofit window (with a z-bar flange)? Are you talking of a snap-on nailing fin? I researched a couple of articles http://doityourself.com/windows/retrofit.htm, in this article they discuss retrofitting old steel casement windows which usually have block or stucco on the exterior, by the method I talked about earlier. Also there are more associations out there that certify contractors, AAMA being the largest I'm sure, But I beleive I've covered the bases with my AWDI certification http://www.awdi.com/. To get back to the original posters topic, if your looking for a 20-30 yr. old aluminum frame to provide a water tight seal, you're in trouble, I don't know how many I've replaced BECAUSE they leak, condensate, etc. Sounds like steveo had some greenhorns install his windows and who knows what method they used. I tried to use the first link, select windows, select How Do I Decide between Retrofit, New Construction.

[Profx]

Alright BayCity I've been doing some more research and I found a site that describes in detail the type install with the Z bar flange you were discussing, I haven't heard of this and it seems like a really good method, I wonder when this idea was implemented? It also shows 2 other methods a new construction approach, and last the method I was reffering to with removing the frame, adding exterior moulding, and flashing everything off. I'd say all 3 methods work great but with retrofitting inside of that aluminum frame you lose glass size and I can't get used of the idea of balancing a vinyl window on that old aluminum frame and trying to fasten it to the opening. Here's a link for the site that shows 3 methods.http://www.calpac.com/html_L3/products/ ... n_inst.htm

[Windows(SouthernCA)]

Funny how Milgard installers never give a installation warranty on its windows(except for the 1 year California mandates). This problem is huge in the window industry. People find a good window company that gives a installation warranty for at least 10 years including labor.

[BayCityWindows]

Bay City Windows offers a 10 year labor warranty,

its not "Milgard" dealers,

it's "shady" dealers who don't offer a 10 year labor warranty.

[HipKat]

Sometimes I read ythis board and wonder if my company is the only one who actually has windows custom built to fit each individual opening....

Beating the frame with a hammer??? Good grief....