I HEART MY NEW SCHUCOS BUT......

[kellsbells]

I know...I know! You are all sick of answering condensation questions ad nauseum! I completely understand. I tried to avoid asking you. Really I did. But google and ask.com searches only turned up info on condensation on the inside. And in searching this board the only answer I could find for condensation on the outside is that "your windows are doing their job." I get it but....

People around here are now finally starting to get around to replacing windows. As I'm sure you are aware, people who are educated by tv commercials and consumers reports (a/k/a "uneducated people") believe with every fiber of their being that if they have double pane windows they have good energy efficient windows, and you can get 'em for less than $300 installed. Well obviously I am the only one on this block with any common sense! So I have been trying to spread the word and educate my neighbors at least a little. But it is hard to do when they constantly tell me "well ever since you got your new windows they are fogged up every morning." (You can't hear me but I am using my Gladys Kravitz neighbor voice.) I have 5 triple/krypton Schuco casements and they are, in fact, fogged up every morning on the outside, a problem (?) that I never had with the crappy old windows. I know that condensaton on the inside means too much humidity, and condensation on the outside means, according to you guys, that my windows are doing their job. But what exactly does that mean? What causes it?

Nothing would please me more than to be able to confidently explain to all the Gladys's why there is nothing wrong with my new windows but I don't really understand it myself. Please enlighten me and help me save these people from themselves and keep them away from Home Depot and shyster "$199 INSTALLED!" contractors.

[Bill]

Below is the explanation of this from Andersen's web site. I have found this info helpful in making my customers understand this condition.

The more energy efficient your windows are the more likely this will occur.

Bill

EXTERIOR PANE
Condensation on the outside of your windows or patio doors may occur during spring and in the fall, usually when cool nights follow a warm day. It is a result of moisture in the air exceeding certain limits and the temperature of the glass falling below the dew point in the air. condensation on the exterior glass panes is a natural phenomenon, especially for energy-efficient High PerformanceTM insulating glass (currently the standard on most Andersen® products), which restricts the airflow between the panes of glass. This condensation will evaporate once the day warms. To receive a brochure about this phenomenon, go to our Care & Maintenance section.

[elisaw]

Hi kellsbells.
I read some of your posts, and I am also in philadelphia, and interested in getting a quote on schuco windows!

Which company did you go with? (do they have a website?) and, if you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost you for what size of job?

Let me know, I'm very interested. Thanks!!
-Elisa

[Window4U (IL)]

Hi kellsbells.
I read some of your posts, and I am also in philadelphia, and interested in getting a quote on schuco windows!

Which company did you go with? (do they have a website?) and, if you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost you for what size of job?

Let me know, I'm very interested. Thanks!!
-Elisa

Schuco is currently being sold to Four Season Sunrooms.

[WindowInfo]

Hi kellsbells.
I read some of your posts, and I am also in Philadelphia, and interested in getting a quote on schuco windows!

Which company did you go with? (do they have a website?) and, if you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost you for what size of job?

Let me know, I'm very interested. Thanks!!
-Elisa

Search this site for information on other windows. You will find many discussions on a bunch of different brands.
Here are a couple to check out:
Soft-Lite
Great Lakes Uniframe
Simonton
Gorell
Sunrise

[elisaw]

I have contacted four seasons but not heard back.
Based on reviews (and availability), my next bet would be the Simonton 5500. I have limited resources, and it appears to be a good window. Although I saw a sample with home depot, I'll probably go through an independent person to get a better price (and probably a better installation). Still, I wouldn't mind a quote on the schuco... if nothing else, at least for comparison!!


Actually, if anyone knows a reputable installer in Philly (for Simonton), and/or a distrubutor of Schucos, let me know!!

I have already received 6 quotes and am expecting 3 more this weekend!

[Delaware Mike]

Hasn't anyone impressed you yet? What products have you seen so far and what are the numbers? Part of your job is to interview contractors and window dealers so that you may see who offers the best value so that you may make a well informed choice. When we go out to look at project we also are interviewing the potenial customer to see if our products and services are going to be able to satisfy that particular homeowner.

[elisaw]

Hasn't anyone impressed you yet? What products have you seen so far and what are the numbers? Part of your job is to interview contractors and window dealers so that you may see who offers the best value so that you may make a well informed choice. When we go out to look at project we also are interviewing the potenial customer to see if our products and services are going to be able to satisfy that particular homeowner.

Actually, no I haven't been impressed with any of the sales people.... which is part of the reason. They are all sales people with high-pressure tactics, who insist that their product is better than everyone else's or that their price can't be beat. Some have seemed surprised that I am getting more than one quote. Others have told me that unless I spend huge amounts of money, i will just need to replace again in a few years!

To sum up, I've met with HD, Homefix, Andersen Renewal,etc. So perhaps it is my fault for meeting with these sorts of sellers first. Each one pushed one particular product, and the prices were high (originally pricing 3 windows, prices ranged from $1700 to $4700!). I have canceled appointments with WindowWizards and Castle Windows (and I think a couple others) after checking the civil court listings in Philadelphia and information from web searches.

I did get a couple prices over the phone, one example from United Window, Uniframe Hi R+Plus Double Pane U-Factor .29
2 Double Hungs 27x 60 = $622.00 each
1 3-lite slider 67 x 37 = $1029.60
1 3-lite slider 83 x 61 = $1438.80
But they would actually rather sell me the Maxuus triple-pane for even more money!!

This week, I finally called Bradco Supply to find out REALLY what the Simonton 5500 or 5300 (with superspacer) would cost. THOSE numbers and that guy I liked, and even doubling their prices to add the installation costs would be cheaper than these other quotes! Sadly, they don't do install, and he couldn't direct me to a contractor.

I am meeting with an individual contractor this morning, and it is my first pure contractor. He seems (on the phone) an upstanding guy, and I am meeting with Champion (which I now know will be overpriced) and ALCO windows. I am skeptical about ALCO, since I cannot find ANY information about them, other than their own website. Plus, once again, I can tell the guy will push one product and probably be high pressure.

I once had an issue with a contractor (such that he didn't complete a job correctly) and in the end I had to take him to court. So, I was originally hoping that I could go with a company to avoid individual contractor issues and get these lifetime warranties on installation that all of them boast! But I am now realizing that there are issues even with the big companies, unless I want to spend a fortune!

Delaware Mike, you serve my area! What do you think? I am, in the end, looking to replace 8 windows (which is all of them), and I'll likely go with the Simonton 5300 or 5500 (unless I could find a good price on the Schuco locally). I also need to figure into my costs that I probably have at least two, if not more, rotted sills. I have an old rowhome, and I think the current windows were a do-it-yourself job. :-/

[Delaware Mike]

Your are learning real fast. Good job so far. The outfits that you mentioned are extremely high pressured and overpriced for the quality of window that they offer. At least with HD you will be able to gauge the product vs. what a private contractor's installation ability might be. Homefix was selling Accu-Weld junk a few years ago. I'm not sure what they are carring now. The two companies that you cancelled appointments with would be a waste of about 4-6 hours of your life that you would never be able to get back again. I don't mean to be such a basher, but they both pay their subs about $50 a window and offer low-grade windows that cost them a little over a $100 to purchase, yet their presentations are all about their scare tatics and fear of loss.

I think that United is still a low-grade supply house window. The Uniframe should be a decent product as it's Great Lake's flagship product, but they are stuck on not having any type of spacer upgrades from their PPG Intecept metal spacer.

It looks like your Bradco dealer in that area isn't selling too many Simontons. If you had walked into a couple of supply houses down here in Delaware the experienced staff would have given you about 5 business cards of very good private contractors that do windows at reasonable rates.

Since the bulk of your job is sliders, Schuco really might not have been the right product. I had only a couple of problems with their inline sliders, but the problems pretty much required a new frame be installed so we had to eat the labor and time portion due to a bad design. Others loved them. Schuco's new American slider could have been the answer but we never had a chance to get to know them with all that's going on up there.

Kellsbell's project did not include any sliders or double-hung Schuco products. She had casements and awnings. So what to do? I don't think that you are going to be impressed with Champion. Most of the Gorell guys are very high since Dixie Homecrafters is the local outfit for them. Soft-Lite would be a good choice but keep in mind that they offer 4 different lines so if you meet with an authorized dealer don't pay for the lower grade what the Elements or Imperial should run.

I'm not a huge fan of Simonton, but in your case it's most likely going to be the best value if you can find a good installer that has the right credentials. Recently, my Impressions sample came in with the worst welds I've ever seen and the so called "lexan' handle was already cracked.

Good Luck and let us know how you make out this weekend.

[elisaw]

It looks like your Bradco dealer in that area isn't selling too many Simontons. If you had walked into a couple of supply houses down here in Delaware the experienced staff would have given you about 5 business cards of very good private contractors that do windows at reasonable rates.

There is still a chance I will hear from the Bradco guy again. He was going to talk to one of his sales people for Philly. I wound up calling the Bradco in Malvern because the Philly one didn't carry Simontons.

Since the bulk of your job is sliders, Schuco really might not have been the right product. I had only a couple of problems with their inline sliders, but the problems pretty much required a new frame be installed so we had to eat the labor and time portion due to a bad design. Others loved them. Schuco's new American slider could have been the answer but we never had a chance to get to know them with all that's going on up there.

Even if Schuco isn't the right product, I'd appreciate a comparison product to the Simonton that isn't totally overpriced, especially after reading some reviews on the windows.

Soft-Lite would be a good choice but keep in mind that they offer 4 different lines so if you meet with an authorized dealer don't pay for the lower grade what the Elements or Imperial should run.

Sadly, the only retailer for Soft-lite in the area is Castle Windows, and I have heard some very negative things about them. And, besides, they told me that THEY made the windows, rather than admitting they were Soft-lite windows. I don't appreciate that sort of deception!

I'm not a huge fan of Simonton, but in your case it's most likely going to be the best value if you can find a good installer that has the right credentials. Recently, my Impressions sample came in with the worst welds I've ever seen and the so called "lexan' handle was already cracked.

I saw a few people commenting on the Simonton Impressions' welds. Yes, it is a concern. What are your thoughts on the Reflections, though? Also, I am under the impression that Simonton customer service is good at handling issue, when not all companies are reported to.

Which windows do you mostly install?

The contractor I met this morning mostly installs Pella, but he had no issue to put together a quote for me for Simonton. He seems like a knowledgeable guy.

However, let me ask you - I was under the impression that windows needed to be an EXACT fit. He took a few measurements of each window (3 in each direction), but he indicated that he'd rather have a window too small (within a 1/2") than a window too large. Although I understand why, I am wondering if this is really what the contractors all really do, or if there is something suspicious about him estimating a measurement down, rather than making sure everything is exact??

One thing he did tell me, though, which is good to know now, is that three of the windows in my house will need work on the masonry (and re-sill?) to get the window far back enough into the opening. One of the windows is actually popped forward. And the other two are absolutely flush with the sheetrock. But one of the windows is in a room where I plan on redoing the sheetrock entirely (at some point, depending on finances), and he suggested that it would be best to do everything in that room at once, rather than doing the window and then having to take everything out to re-do the walls. So, I guess I am now going to get quotes for 7 windows instead of 8.

Thanks for all your thoughts!!!

[WindowInfo]

[quote="elisawHowever, let me ask you - I was under the impression that windows needed to be an EXACT fit. He took a few measurements of each window (3 in each direction), but he indicated that he'd rather have a window too small (within a 1/2") than a window too large. Although I understand why, I am wondering if this is really what the contractors all really do, or if there is something suspicious about him estimating a measurement down, rather than making sure everything is exact??

[/quote]
We usually cut the window down 1/4 to 3/8 on the height and width. It allows for insulation and room in the existing frame to adjust the new window.
elisaw what is your budget for a regular size double hung? It helps us a little recommending a window that suits your needs.

[elisaw]

I'm figuring that $400 installed for a regular-size double-hung is appropriate. More than $500, I cannot imagine spending. But, of course, I wouldn't mind a better quality window for cheaper, either.