How to Caulk Properly

[ptbomb]

I had harvey windows, double hung. The salesman during our intial meeting said the windows would be installed from the inside, hence removing and replacing the inside molding. The installers installed the windows from outside instead. I guess no big deal right? Or?

No molding on the inside was touched. The final phase of installation was to caulk between the inside molding and window. They did a messy caulking job in the corners. My contract states paintable caulk which I stressed during the negotiation with the con man sales person. I also asked the installer while he installed the first window (with my wife present), "is it paintable caulk", he said yes. Today I take out the garbage and found a tube of the caulk. It is not paintable, its OSI HM-270 construction silicone sealant. What should I do.

Also, I cannot believe the installer caulked along an area of the molding where it is bowed. Basically, the molding is caulked on the inside, but there is a gap between the window junction (vertical plane/side of window and the inside stop? (confusing description, yes). Is it normal practice to simply caulk along the inside molding? Would it not be better to remove the molding, caulk the junction of the window, then replace the molding? I also found the directions in the trash, which Harvey Industries says to remove the molding. The directions do no describe and outside in type of installation.

Frustration; not to mention they showed up minus one window!, so the job is not finished! I need some thoughts on this please.

thanks

[TheWindowNerd]

IMO, you get what you pay for. "con sales man"
The outside in is a acceptable install, as a matter of fact I sometime s charge $10 more per window for it, some guys do it as thier standard.
The installer could have been ignorant or lied, neither of which is acceptable.
Hold a large portion of final payment till all items are addressed and to your contract specifications.
Be as polite as possible.

[WindowInfo]

The salesman during our initial meeting said the windows would be installed from the inside, hence removing and replacing the inside molding. The installers installed the windows from outside instead.

Most salesman only have basic knowledge of how a window is installed. There are many ways to properly install a window in the existing frame (which there are many different types). Installers are the ones you listen to on the installation of your windows.

My contract states paintable caulk which I stressed during the negotiation with the con man sales person. I also asked the installer while he installed the first window (with my wife present), "is it paintable caulk", he said yes. Today I take out the garbage and found a tube of the caulk. It is not paintable, its OSI HM-270 construction silicone sealant.

Did you try to paint it? We use two types of caulking on most jobs Latex for the inside and Silicone for the outside. Maybe the tube you pulled out of the garbage was used on the outside. Paint a section and see if it is paintable...

Is it normal practice to simply caulk along the inside molding?

We always caulk the inside molding if its painted.

Would it not be better to remove the molding, caulk the junction of the window, then replace the molding?

When the trim is painted we would rather put the window in from the outside. When you remove painted trim it usually cracks and chips the paint. Even if he remove the trim,caulk the window, put the trim back on he still had would of had to put a bead against the window and the trim. The trim would of looked a lot worst in my opinion.

I also found the directions in the trash, which Harvey Industries says to remove the molding. The directions do no describe and outside in type of installation.

You found them in there rightful home...lol

[windowdude]

which I stressed during the negotiation with the con man sales person

Just curious...why did you buy from him if you thought he was a con man? I'm not trying to be a wiseguy...just like to learn about what makes people tick.

[Skydawggy]

So, the salesman said the installer would use paintable caulk and the installer uses something else. Then the installer caulks where the molding is bowed. The installer tells you a bold face lie about the caulk being paintable. The salesman tells you the window will be installed from the inside and the installer decides to put it in from the outside. Somehow this is all the salesmans fault and that automatically makes him a "con man"? WOW!!!!! Quite a stretch on the blame there. Have you tried contacting the installer or the salesman?

[ptbomb]

Thanks for the responses.

I will try and comment.

The sales guy, lets call him Jake, is the owner of the company, which has been in business since the early 80's. I told him my situation, that I had someone that I trusted, a well respected installer who I had lined up to do the job, but preferred not to wait until August to get my windows installed. (my first mistake). Jake's price was slightly higher than my original installer so Jake came down a bit in price (my second mistake). Jake appeared confident, boasted about all his trips to Europe on Harvey Window's dime because he has dealt with thousands of customers using their product. Jake assured me, with his written proposal that everything would work out fine and not to worry. He even gave me a 5 year warranty on labor and lifetime on all parts and glass, which enticed me to go with him. He handed me an award he won as being the best window guy in town, as voted by the public. In the middle of May, Jake said it would take 2-3 weeks for the windows to come in, guaranteeing they would be installed in early June. I believed him (my third mistake). I had to constantly call Jake asking where the windows were, as it was close to the end of June without a call from him or his office. I got the run around from their office, "let me check the file", "let me call you back", "Jakes not in", "they will be in on Monday", they will be in on Tuesday", on Wed I get "good news, the windows are in, we will install tomorrow". They blamed the delay on Harvey, which I guess could be the case. However I called Harvey and they said they were a bit delayed, but likely not 4-5 weeks behind.

Anyway,
1) Windows were installed from the outside, in. The workers were not on ladders standing outside, they were inside my house and installed the windows, frame first then the sashes. No outside trim was removed and nor any inside molding. After they put the batt fiberglass insulation in, they simply screwed the sides in to the window frame.

2) They only used one type of caulk, the one I described. The tube specifically states, "not paintable. My inside trim is stained with a poly on top I believe. They put this caulk between the frame of the window (if thats what you call it) and the small thin vertical molding (not the big molding, just a small decorative strip used to cover up the seam. Like I said, that small strip of molding is bowed in places, so they caulked the molding but there a space behind it. There was no caulking put on the outside since they were not on ladders outside, except for the kitchen window where they had to go outside and used a white caulk.

3) I was told all my windows would meet the current .30 U factor. All did but one. The kitchen slider is a .33. I realize I will still maximize my rebate (maximum 1500$), but I was told all my windows would meet it on the proposal. What should I do now, if anything. Should I demand a energy star window? THere was also a gap on each side of this window during install, I am guessing at least a quarter inch. Is this ok?

4) Still waiting for my last window to get installed. I guess they are waiting for Harvey to send it. I owe about 1000$.

There is more, but I am done. I guess I will not really know how the install went until this winter. Thanks for your comments. It helps to actually write this, like someone is listening... lol.

[WindowInfo]

1) Windows were installed from the outside, in. The workers were not on ladders standing outside, they were inside my house and installed the windows, frame first then the sashes. No outside trim was removed and nor any inside molding. After they put the batt fiberglass insulation in, they simply screwed the sides in to the window frame.

Nothing wrong with installing windows from the outside. We rarely use ladders, most of our work is done by removing the sashes and working from the inside. Check the outside again on your windows, they had to seal them on the outside with either new stops and caulk or they capped the outside casing with coil. If they didn't seal them you got a crappy install...

2) They only used one type of caulk, the one I described. The tube specifically states, "not paintable. My inside trim is stained with a poly on top I believe.

With stained molding we usually try not to put any caulking around the inside. If we do, its we usually use clear silicone since your are not going to be painting it.

3) I was told all my windows would meet the current .30 U factor. All did but one. The kitchen slider is a .33. I realize I will still maximize my rebate (maximum 1500$), but I was told all my windows would meet it on the proposal. What should I do now, if anything. Should I demand a energy star window? THere was also a gap on each side of this window during install, I am guessing at least a quarter inch. Is this ok?

.33 is a energy star window. .35 and under meets Energy Stars Standards. We cut down the window 1/4 to 3/8 on each side of the window to allow for shimming and insulation.

[Windows on Washington]

33 is a energy star window. .35 and under meets Energy Stars Standards. We cut down the window 1/4 to 3/8 on each side of the window to allow for shimming and installation.

Better check those numbers again.

[WindowInfo]

33 is a energy star window. .35 and under meets Energy Stars Standards. We cut down the window 1/4 to 3/8 on each side of the window to allow for shimming and installation.

Better check those numbers again.

What should I do now, if anything. Should I demand a energy star window?

.33 doesn't meet the tax credit but its still a Energy Star Window.

[Windows on Washington]

True, but if you have a customer ask you to install and Energy Star window and you put in a 0.33 unit...there is going to be some fireworks.

[TheWindowNerd]

You should do nothing.
You maxed out the ETC.
Be happy.

[fenestrationman]

For the current tax credit. The U value must be .30 or lower and the SHGC must be .30 or lower. All energy star products do not qualify.
As fas as the unit that did not meet the .30/.30, I would let it ride and enjoy the new view.

[fenestrationman]

Ignore my response above. A slight typo.
For the current tax credit. The U value must be .30 or lower and the SHGC must be .30 or lower. Not all energy star products qualify.
As fas as the unit that did not meet the .30/.30, I would let it ride and enjoy the new view.