Windowwizards & OKNA foam fill issues

[jayal11]

I have been working with Okna windows and selling their product for a long time. In terms of the quality of their vinyl windows, they are absolutely some of the best you will find in the industry. One thing the video failed to address is that the the windows ALL met the U factors that were promised (and the U factors are excellent, some as low as .25...this blows the bigger name windows out of the water), and are reflected on the NFRC stickers. The quality of the vinyl, locks, tilt mechanisms, double-strenght glass, assembly and excellent as well. Incidentally, this issue, whatever it is, is only limited to the vinyl windows, not the higher grade composite windows that they manufacture.

Okna has always stood behind their products and have never given us an issue with warranties. Things arent also not what they seem. In an age where no one trusts anyone anymore, I think it would be only fair to give the benefit of the doubt to a company that more-than-deserves it.

[WOW]

According to the news report, they did this over 2 years!!! I can understand a mistake but this a little much... But you have to look at it like a consumer, if they showed foam and it wasn't there, you feel like you've been duped regardless of the performance.

[windowsrus]

I am the owner of a relatively large home improvement company. We install thousands of windows a year. Our company sells and installs Okna windows and have been for quite a few years. We are extremely happy with the windows and their service. Okna does sell quite a few different models of windows and I do not know which model Windowizards sell. I know with the research I did that Windowwizards is a reputable company and has been around for a while and services their customers the proper way. I have watched the video that was ran and I do understand and see that there was not much foam in the windows and if the windows were supposed to have the foam, it should have been there. The real fact is this, the majority of the window industry does not have foam in their windows and Okna windows "U" rating is a .25 and most other window companies have "U" ratings right around .30 or even higher. The foam does not do that much for the window in terms or the "U" ratings. We all need to take a step back and look at both sides, yes the frames should have had foam in it if it was sold that way, but on the other hand Okna window company is a great reliable company selling great products and their service is second to none. I have had the Priveledge to know the owners and most of their staff and I can assure you they are all fantastic people to deal with. I would be more upset if the Low "E" coatings or Gasses between the panes of glass were left out as this would have a tremendous impact on the window.
If anyone has any question on the caliber of the company, I would offer this. Call the company, ask to make an appointment to come and visit thier manufacturing plant and take a tour. I think you will be convinced after seeing their operation and their staff, that they are a quality company.

[Will91]

Thanks for bringing this to the attention of the board Bill.

I read the pdf letters from WindowWizards and Okna and it appears they are trying to defuse this issue by blaming it on marketing brochures that show every cavity filled with foam when apparently they now claim Okna never did necessarily fill every cavity with foam. However, as clearly shown in the the Fox video, even the cavities that did have foam were not filled through and through and had large gaps as Buddy mentioned previously. Therefore, either there is a manufacturing problem that leads to these voids or it was done intentionally. Either way, the windows are not nearly "foam filled" and Okna and WindowWizards should own up to what has really happened here.

[Briant73]

I am waiting to see what regular OKNA brand windows that are supposed to have foam look like.

From the report the points I gathered

Windows were showed both in brochure and a sample cut away with foam filling the chambers fully, no mention of there not being foam or very little foam in some chambers.
Real world windows from different years either had no foam, small amounts, or were not fully filled as the samples/brochsure suggested.
I believe they said at the end that window wizards through their lawyer admitted the company's ownership had been told there was an issue with foam in the windows to some degree.
Both WindowWizards and Okna both claim the windows are not the issue, the issue being the brochure and sample cut away being incorrect
WindowWizards say's they will take all complaints seriously and respond accordingly.


We can speculate on what happened here but I think an investigation is in order even just to clear air. OKNA is giving the same answers as Window Wizards so currently my thoughts go along this line - they admitted the product was misrepresented by erroneous sales materials from the real world version and that's the only thing different from the brochure/sales points, let's wait and see what else if anything comes out.

I am the owner of a relatively large home improvement company. We install thousands of windows a year. Our company sells and installs Okna windows and have been for quite a few years. We are extremely happy with the windows and their service. Okna does sell quite a few different models of windows and I do not know which model Windowizards sell. I know with the research I did that Windowwizards is a reputable company and has been around for a while and services their customers the proper way. I have watched the video that was ran and I do understand and see that there was not much foam in the windows and if the windows were supposed to have the foam, it should have been there. The real fact is this, the majority of the window industry does not have foam in their windows and Okna windows "U" rating is a .25 and most other window companies have "U" ratings right around .30 or even higher. The foam does not do that much for the window in terms or the "U" ratings. We all need to take a step back and look at both sides, yes the frames should have had foam in it if it was sold that way, but on the other hand Okna window company is a great reliable company selling great products and their service is second to none. I have had the Priveledge to know the owners and most of their staff and I can assure you they are all fantastic people to deal with. I would be more upset if the Low "E" coatings or Gasses between the panes of glass were left out as this would have a tremendous impact on the window.
If anyone has any question on the caliber of the company, I would offer this. Call the company, ask to make an appointment to come and visit thier manufacturing plant and take a tour. I think you will be convinced after seeing their operation and their staff, that they are a quality company.

[Windows on Washington]

Buddy,

Inserted foam does little or nothing to improve the insulation of the frame as there is not intimate contact with what you are trying to insulate and therefore zero insulation value is transmitted. Not debating semantics with you and that is separate altogether from the issue at hand in this thread. There is also evidence to indicate that an inserted foam block can corrupt the vinyl welds if it gets into the mixture during the welding process. Something to consider.

Back to what I have found out so far. I did not go by my office today so I did not get a chance to hack one open.

Let me clear and state that this is just what information was given to me. I am sure that the truth is always in shades of gray and the facts are somewhere in the middle.

The individual that brought the story to Channel 29 was dismissed for excessive service calls an shoddy workmanship. He supposedly try to extort 40K from Window Wizards and was unsuccessful. According to my inside rep, Window Wizards may be pursuing punitive action against him.

My rep was very clear that there was no underhanded dealings on Window Wizards behalf and that they and Okna are working closely together to resolve the issue.

Channel 29 filmed the Okna manufacturing facility as part of a "story" on energy efficiency and used the footage for this expose. All of the information regarding the science, performance, and verifiable data on the window were edited out of the final copy. Surprise surprise.

Okna has created 4 crews of service technicians to service all the window that were sold through Window Wizards that might fall under the umbrella of less than promised foam.


Okna originally did a full foam fill on the frame and sash and found that, after field testing, the foam over expanded in the jamb track/balance chambers (nearest the inside of the home) and cause an operational issue with the window. The marketing materials were already produced based on the full foam filling concept and model. The inner chamber of foam was deleted from their manufacturing process and the window maintained the thermal data (dropped 0.003 points in U-Factor) as certified by the NFRC at 0.25. They are in the process of investigating another foam manufacturer that promises full foam filling with no deflection and simulated tests indicate the potential U-Factor of 0.24 in a double pane. The NFRC did not require a change in marketing materials because the overall performance data was unchanged. The bottom rail of the sash extrusion was never foam filled to allow for the weep holes to work properly.

It appears that both Okna and Window Wizards are being very proactive about this and there is supposed to be a follow up news piece on a competitors channel to address this and Fox was apparently not interested in a retort piece.

There would be little benefit and a lot to loose if Okna purposefully half filled voids to save money. The money saved is pennies in this application and potential injury to reputation could be priceless. Looks like an application error and certainly a marketing oversight. Again, I don't know and likely never will. That being said, to claim this was a deliberate and underhanded effort by Okna and Window Wizards is also equally irresponsible until the facts are laid out.

[Windows on Washington]

The window expert in the Fox piece was actually a BF Rich employee. That is cutting a little close to home to have your expert be a competitor.

[buddy110]

To the people in the industry - what do you feel should be the solution customers should receive? Cash Back, Some kind of fix? Free window washings for the next 5 years? Just curious.

The consumer should get the windows they paid for. I.E. WW should remove the existing "scams" and replace them. They should also verify, on a random basis in front of the consumer, that the new windows in fact are what were represented when they purchase them.

[buddy110]

Buddy,

Inserted foam does little or nothing to improve the insulation of the frame as there is not intimate contact with what you are trying to insulate and therefore zero insulation value is transmitted. Not debating semantics with you and that is separate altogether from the issue at hand in this thread. There is also evidence to indicate that an inserted foam block can corrupt the vinyl welds if it gets into the mixture during the welding process. Something to consider.

Back to what I have found out so far. I did not go by my office today so I did not get a chance to hack one open.

Let me clear and state that this is just what information was given to me. I am sure that the truth is always in shades of gray and the facts are somewhere in the middle.

The individual that brought the story to Channel 29 was dismissed for excessive service calls an shoddy workmanship. He supposedly try to extort 40K from Window Wizards and was unsuccessful. According to my inside rep, Window Wizards may be pursuing punitive action against him.

My rep was very clear that there was no underhanded dealings on Window Wizards behalf and that they and Okna are working closely together to resolve the issue.

Channel 29 filmed the Okna manufacturing facility as part of a "story" on energy efficiency and used the footage for this expose. All of the information regarding the science, performance, and verifiable data on the window were edited out of the final copy. Surprise surprise.

Okna has created 4 crews of service technicians to service all the window that were sold through Window Wizards that might fall under the umbrella of less than promised foam.


Okna originally did a full foam fill on the frame and sash and found that, after field testing, the foam over expanded in the jamb track/balance chambers (nearest the inside of the home) and cause an operational issue with the window. The marketing materials were already produced based on the full foam filling concept and model. The inner chamber of foam was deleted from their manufacturing process and the window maintained the thermal data (dropped 0.003 points in U-Factor) as certified by the NFRC at 0.25. They are in the process of investigating another foam manufacturer that promises full foam filling with no deflection and simulated tests indicate the potential U-Factor of 0.24 in a double pane. The NFRC did not require a change in marketing materials because the overall performance data was unchanged. The bottom rail of the sash extrusion was never foam filled to allow for the weep holes to work properly.

It appears that both Okna and Window Wizards are being very proactive about this and there is supposed to be a follow up news piece on a competitors channel to address this and Fox was apparently not interested in a retort piece.

There would be little benefit and a lot to loose if Okna purposefully half filled voids to save money. The money saved is pennies in this application and potential injury to reputation could be priceless. Looks like an application error and certainly a marketing oversight. Again, I don't know and likely never will. That being said, to claim this was a deliberate and underhanded effort by Okna and Window Wizards is also equally irresponsible until the facts are laid out.

I'm not arguing the value of the insulation. If you read my post you'd see that.
What happened here is nothing short of deception. WW and Okna knowingly used literature and cross cuts that were misleading. If Okna was being "proactive" they should have recalled the literature and cross cut sections when they changed their foam filling policy.

I'm sure there is another side to the installer story. However, given that WW already deceived people they have serious credibility issues IMO. Anything they claim at this point is suspect

[buddy110]

wow, i hope my windows have full foam, although from the other experts on the board seems like it is a minor issue???

When they were installing, I could see some of the foam on the outer edges of the window fram.

This is most definitely NOT a minor issue. This is a black-eye for Okna, Window Wizards and the industry in general as well as a pretty clear case of consumer fraud. Many of us advocate for higher standards in manufacturing and greater honesty and openness with consumers. Personally, I'd like to see an investigation by the AG and if Okna and/or Window Wizards are complicit in defrauding consumers, I'd like to see them either replace every window involved or offer the customer a partial refund. This isn't some "glitch" at the factory. This was likely done with full knowledge by management at Okna and possibly at Window Wizards. Unfortunately, we will probably see some of the same industry apologists stepping up to defend Okna as they did with Schuco because they have a financial interest in sweeping this under the rug as soon as possible.

Agreed 1000%!

[shamu]

I always thought the lineals were filled prior to any cutting or processing. The full length of the lineal should be foam filled. Which leads to my question; How can only the ends or corners have the foam and none in the center of the frame or sash?

[TheWindowNerd]

They do not fill the lineals. They fill the welded frame, I saw it in the factory 4 weeks ago.
WW is not in my opinion a reputable company, Over the past two decades they have had various runnin with AG type issues.
They also lost their ability to distribute Andersen windows, why - bad pay. They have closed most stores and run crazy ads like buy one get one free, buy one get two free.
They sell the 500 series that is private labeled.
No black eye for WW, they have been black for a long time.
But Okna is taking a hit.

[greek023]

OK i'm new to this site. I was just about to sign a contract with the contractor using a a foam insulated OKNA frame. I need someones opinion.
Will this bankrupt OKNA? If i buy the windows will I have a warranty in 5 years?
Any thoughts?

[Skydawggy]

It's a little premature to start freaking out about Okna going into bankruptcy. If they do a Mea Culpa and then do right by the customers who didn't get what they were supposed to get, they should be OK.

[Delaware Mike]

Anthony's spot on with his info. on WW. OKNA has been the best vinyl that they have ever sold. You can't imagine the junk that they have sold over the years that has made their owner's very wealthy. I've talked many times to the manager at the Newark, DE store. Nice guy and straight shooter.