Backer Rod....

[whatnoise]

As can be read in another post I have decided on ordering the Simonton 9800 windows for my home.

I have talked to a few contractors, and to make a long story short I have pretty much decided on doing the install myself.

While working with the contractor supply house on putting together the window package he recommended a contractor to me so I decided to give him a call.

He was very up front with everything an was well put together.... he had his license, insurance, certifications, pictures of previous jobs, etc.

I also liked the quote.

I liked everything he was explaining about the install process: measuring, removal, OSI Quad caulk on the exterior, etc....
The one thing that gives me second thoughts is the following....

He indicated he did not like to use fiberglass, as he doesn't feel it lends itself well to window applications.

Excellent, I thought to myself, he's going to use foam...

Then he explained to me he doesn't use foam because he doesn't trust the expansion of it and told me it can cause issues with frame warp-age.

He explains he will instead use a foam based backer rod in lieu of fiberglass/foam. He said he prefers it because it installs like fiberglass but insulates better.

Have any of you heard of such practices?

[Windows on Washington]

Backer rod is not used as an insulator or air barrier, it is used primarily as a stop for the caulking so that you are not filling the entire cavity with caulking.

The window and door foams are designed for just that and are the only real air barrier in terms of insulation for window applications.

[TLHWINDOWS]

Backer Rod is typically used to fill gaps for Caulk not insulate.

Foam is good for air/water barriers and insulation and batton is good for insulating in a cavity.

[whatnoise]

Backer rod is not used as an insulator or air barrier, it is used primarily as a stop for the caulking so that you are not filling the entire cavity with caulking.

The window and door foams are designed for just that and are the only real air barrier in terms of insulation for window applications.

I understand what backer rod is for, so it through me for a loop when he gave me his explanation. Basically he is telling me the backer rod will be the insulator. I had never heard of such, so I figured I would ask here.

So would you shy away from this type of install?

Exterior caulk - backer rod - interior caulk.

[Windows on Washington]

Technically you could call it an insulator because it is a close cell foam but that is not what it is for nor is the role that it fills.

It only contacts the frame of the window in a very small cross-section so that is the only little section that it is performing as an insulator.

That type of installation is fine but the foam option is better and if you are going to be doing the work, you might as well go the extra step and do it right. Do some practice foam application and you will be an old pro before you know it.

[whatnoise]

Thanks for the insight...

I basically am entertaining two options...

Doing the work myself, or hiring this particular contractor. I have spoke with several other contractors which ended with less than desirable results (no communication, pushing an inferior window, etc).

I feel confident I can do the work properly by myself. I have done numerous other home renovation projects with great results, the closest related project being replacing 2 entry doors with new pre-hung units. A lot of my success is owed to forums such as this where I take my time and research every aspect of a project.

So it seems I have two options...
Hire this contractor who wants to install the window using the caulk / backer rod / caulk method.

Or do it myself...
I would purchase a pro foam gun.
Probably use OSI TeQ foam, possibly a Dow Pro product.
Use flashing tape on any exposed wood.
Possibly foam between the house sheathing and brick facade.*** I need to research this.
Seal outside with OSI Quad.
Seal inside with suitable caulk.*** I need to research this.


Decisions, decisions...

[Integra]

What about the foam wrap that Simonton offers as an option on their windows? It's inexpensive, and it accomplishes your ultimate goal.

I'm just not really all that hung up on filling the gaps with insulation or foam or whatever when it comes to ultimate performance of the whole system. You're caulking the inside and the outside with Quad, so air infiltration isn't going to be a concern. By virtue of that, you're creating a dead air space. You're talking about 1/4-no more than 3/8 of an inch of gap at the most (most likely 1/4"). It's not like it's an open gap where wind will be blowing through. As long as there is SOMETHING in that space, will the ultimate performance number of the whole SYSTEM really be impacted THAT much?

I'm not trying to be critical or minimalistic, I'm really just trying to be pragmatic about this. It seems like you're going to a lot of trouble over how you're going to fill what should be a very small gap to begin with. If this contractor is as good as he seems, I have to believe that the final outcome will far outweigh other concerns. I'd just vote to add the Simonton foam wrap, and have them professionally installed. There are just a lot of tricks and techniques that only come from a lot of experience. Plus, you are going to have to live with the final product.

[Guy]

Time to pee in the Cornflakes again.
Here's my take on things gentlemen. Backer rod is used as an insulator around windows on a daily basis. I know your all saying hmmmmmmm. In the Commercial Industry!!! We do it all the time around aluminum doors and windows we install in malls and schools. The only problem is the residential industry has developed this concept that backer rod is that ugly gray stuff the DIY stores sell in the bag. There is no comparison between the "Yellow" closed cell foam backer rod we use in the industrial industry compared to the DIY junk. I only use it in the residential industry when we install Pella products because it's required in their installation guidelines. Using it as an insulator wouldn't be the choice of anyone on this site. You also need to find out what your window manufacture requires you to use as insulation. What ever they require or even "Recommend" is the only choice you really have. Unfortunately there's no other choice.

The backer rod in the commercial industry is usually going into a wider gap that has two completely smooth surfaces on each side. Usually steel or concrete on one side and aluminum on the other side. It's more of a perfect world in these applications, not that they are all great, but in most cases they are.

We can all sit on our computers and "Preach Our Word" from the four wheeled Pulpit we use at our desk. The bottom line is, the Manufacturers Installation Guideline is the Gospel! Amen brothers.