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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:19 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:12 pm
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I've seen a Sears window demo and they use these small mini windows made in different ways and then shine that heat lamp through it. As I remember it, and it has been a while, one of the mini-windows was a double pane with low-e only, or perhaps it was a double pane with argon only.

In any case, the final window, with both low-e and argon, blocked the heat much better than the other one. That's why I was thinking that a simple heat lamp rig-up might be able to detect if one has an argon leak.

Say one takes a couple of their new windows and uses a heat lamp to shine on a thermometer through the window for 30 seconds. Write the temps down. Then a couple of years later, do the exact same thing again and see if there is a change in the reading.

You'd have to be careful to duplicate the experiment, as it having both the heat lamp and thermometer the same distance from the pane every time you do it.

It seems to me that this could be a relatively effective test for gas leakage.


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 Post subject: Re: Reply
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:55 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:11 am
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[quote="FenEx"]The Low-E reflects much of the radiant heat but the Argon retards the transfer of the heat permitted through conduction. This is a primary reason why Argon is used in light bulbs... to reduce the surface temperature of the glass.[/quote]

Agree; but the point i was trying to make, it that the heat lamp test is mostly based on radiant heat because that is felt instantly. To feel the affects conducted heat would take quite some time and the 30 second test that 'nobody' suggested would be useless. A test that might be worth while, is to take the glass temperature reading on a cold night.

I have a question for you if you don't mind; what plays a the bigger role in efficiency in a northern climate like MI., Argon or Low-E? In other words if one had the choice of one or the other, which one would end up being the better window? I think Low-E is the one i would go with; would i be wrong on this choice?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:30 pm 

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:57 am
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Location: ne ohio
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IF you had to make a choice it would be low e.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:32 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
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For an immediate result, try using a solar meter.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:00 am 

Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:12 pm
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If one were an installer and had access to a broken window that is low-e coated - obviously now missing the argon - it would be fun to run some comparisons with a heat lamp and a solar meter between the broken pane vs a normal one.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:44 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
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Actually, I do this in my demo every day. Set up a heat lamp on a stand with a solar meter and a radiometer (when there's kids, 'cause they love it). Then I set different glass samples between them. With the solar meter set at 150 watts, a single pane of clear glass drops it to 130, adding another single pane (storm) drops it to 115, 1/2" double pane clear with air and intercept spacer drops it to 115 also, adding the single clear drops the reading to 100 watts. Triple pane, clear glass with argon and intercept spacer drops it to 85, double pane, lowE quad with argon and super spacer drops it to 50 and triple pane, lowE quad with krypton and super spacer drops it to 20. During this test, I leave the double pane, lowE - argon on the stand for about 3 - 5 minutes, then comparing the side the heat was blasting on (hot) vs. the side that it wasn't (still cold from being outside). The kick is that this all has to be qualified by explaining the effects oif direct sun rays (in summer) vs. indirect rays (in winter) and the SHGC factor of the particular glass packs.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:58 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:11 am
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[quote="Nobody"]If one were an installer and had access to a broken window that is low-e coated - obviously now missing the argon - it would be fun to run some comparisons with a heat lamp and a solar meter between the broken pane vs a normal one.[/quote]

If you use two heat lamps, one for each window and they were left on for one hour, your hand probably would not feel a difference at a distance of about 4" from the glass; but if you touch the glass with your hand, the one with the Argon should feel cooler. Your more likely to feel the difference if you turn the lamps off just before touching the glass, so your hand is not overwhelming by radiant heat which would reduce the sensitivity of your hand to feel the difference.


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 Post subject: Reply
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:07 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Illinois
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Researcher wrote: "I have a question for you if you don't mind; what plays a the bigger role in efficiency in a northern climate like MI., Argon or Low-E? In other words if one had the choice of one or the other, which one would end up being the better window? I think Low-E is the one i would go with; would i be wrong on this choice?"

Interesting question... it's a good thing that is not a choice people are forced to make. I see the two as great partners, especially in heating regions. If it's a question of which one makes more of a difference in energy efficiency... it's Low-E, however, Low-E by itself does not improve insulation- it must be teamed up with an air space. In that space, Argon does indeed add significant advantages over air filled units. Argon's heat transfer rate and sound transmission rate are shown to be about 30% lower than air and thus it provides improved comfort as well as energy efficiency. A completely filled Argon unit may also add life to the Low-E. The better performing soft-coat Low-E coatings are degraded by air and moisture and if exposed have a limited life. As you can see, we have now gone full circle and come right back to where we started... the spacer calls the shots.


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 Post subject: spacers and other stuff
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:03 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:57 pm
Posts: 113
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The argument that one spacer system is inherently superior to another – or all others – is ripe with the possibility of misinformation, misunderstanding, and certainly a great deal of emotionalism.

Each system has its proponents and its detractors. For the most part, TPS seems to be high on most everyone’s list as the best possible material for use in a window spacer system, and some people look at Swiggle as an example of a “garbageâ€


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:57 am
Posts: 135
Location: ne ohio
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one of the best posts ever posted. thank you oberon. oh yeah, oberon which spacer is better? just kidding, great post.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:31 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Who's the man when it comes to glass!!!! Oberon you are the man!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:44 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:11 am
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Thanks for that post Oberon. I have been digging for the facts on spacers because I wanted the facts exposed about warm edge, seal failure and why desiccant beads are used. I would also like the the facts on the longevity of virgin vinyl; do you have any facts on this? Will the window maintain it's performance over some years? How many years?

The only thing I could find on the net is this....."The knock on vinyl is it fades, is unpaintable, gets brittle and is thermally unstable (especially dark colors). It expands and contracts more than wood, aluminum, and even the glass it holds. Vinyl frames have the potential for causing increased air leakage over time because of this differential movement."

It does not say anything about virgin vinyl though.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:19 am 
Excellent post Oberon! I'm totally speechless.

Researcher, I've been manufacturing vinyl windows for over 20 years. I have only used vinyl extrusions from Dayton Technologies (Now Deceuninck North America) and have NEVER had a problem with the vinyl becoming brittle.

We have had more of a problem with windows staining on the inside (smokers) than fading on the outside. We used to make an earthtone color and only had a couple of problems with the windows fading - it was picture windows that were installed with the capstocked material to the inside. Due to poor sales of that color Dayton discontinued earthtone in most of their product lines.

Vinyl is paintable! We have a paint booth and paint our windows using a water based paint. Painting does not affect our warranty but it might affect the product warranty we have with Deceuninck NA.


Last edited by Dan on Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:20 am 

Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:12 pm
Posts: 11
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The swiggle is better than the intercept?

This is the first time I've ever heard this. I've read of dozens of windows manufacturers "upgrading" from the swiggle to the intercept. I've seen this promoted in several company brochures. I've seen multiple charts that claim to compare the temperature of the inside edge when the outside temp is 0 and the inside is 70, and in every single one of them, they have claimed that the intercept is 0.5 to 1.5 degrees warmer than the swiggle.

For instance this article telling one to avoid the swiggle:
http://www.articledestination.com/Artic ... INDOWS/770

This one claims a half-degree advantage to the Intercept:
http://www.pacificcoastwindows.com/spacer.php

And this one a full degree advantage to the Intercept:
http://www.sugarcreekindustries.com/lit ... ystems.pdf

As a homeowner and customer, I have to admit that this type of conflicting information is confusing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:45 am 

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:57 am
Posts: 135
Location: ne ohio
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believe half of what you see and nothing that you read, or something like that. i have never heard that intercept is an upgrade to either the swiggle or the duraseal. quite the opposite. when people are purchasing windows dont the salesman or women have independant studies on parts of their windows as compared to others? not some hunk of malarkey sales brochure. then you the co consumer can look at cut away sections of each part of that window and use your common sense. i have heard of people buying windows before after looking at a sales brochure and a couple of pictures. that is crazy. as far as spacers go it doesn't have to be that complicated. if you don't see any metal. you'll be okay as long as the company is stable. better companies will give a twenty year non-pro-rated glass warranty.


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