Abcleads.com BBB Business Review  NAHB member
Call us at
1-800-219-5332


All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Gas Filled
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:55 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:49 pm
Posts: 1
Location: Central FL
Offline
Just curious I've always wondered, how can you confirm the gas that is supposed to be in your windows, is in the window? I know what a broken seal looks like but, how do you know it's in there from the begining? Can you expose the window to some sort of special light or something to confirm the gas is in there?


Top
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:29 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 429
Location: New Jersey
Offline
Unfortunately there is no practical way for a home owner to confirm the presence of insulating gas within the glass unit.

A very expensive device does exist that can detect both the presence and concentration of the gas but I have never heard of anyone providing the service of making such a determination. FenEx I believe once threatened to acquire this device but I’m not sure if he ever did.

If the factory order or NFRC label on the window specified argon I guess you have to trust that the manufacturer has provided it.

Bill
Uneeda Window


Top
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Gas Filled
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:19 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:54 am
Posts: 19
Location: Albany, NY
Offline
IsVinylFinal? wrote:
Just curious I've always wondered, how can you confirm the gas that is supposed to be in your windows, is in the window? I know what a broken seal looks like but, how do you know it's in there from the begining? Can you expose the window to some sort of special light or something to confirm the gas is in there?


When a seal is broken or on the way typically condesation will develop between the panes -- and over time the LOW E will also oxidze and show a definitive haze.

Otherwise you may also take the temperature of the glass on the outside and then on the inside of the glass - Since Gas deals with conductivity of heat pass through you should see a significant temperature between the two panes.

You should also feel the convection from a high emperature variance from the outside to the inside (a draft) through the glass - not around the window.

Any reputable company would also have resource to test.

Good luck with the project.

Ck


Radio shack has digital themometers for like 50 bucks.


Top
 
 
 Post subject: Reply
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:40 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Illinois
Offline
Ok... time to put my boots on.

"When a seal is broken or on the way typically condesation will develop between the panes -- and over time the LOW E will also oxidze and show a definitive haze."

Wrong... the spacers are completely filled with desiccant and will absorb infiltrating moisture for many years to come.


"Otherwise you may also take the temperature of the glass on the outside and then on the inside of the glass - Since Gas deals with conductivity of heat pass through you should see a significant temperature between the two panes."

Wrong again. The glass is the super-conductor here and will absorb heat at a much faster rate than air or any gas fill. Even a dual pane without gas will show a difference in to out as the inner pane is absorbing ambient and radiant heat from the inside. Gas fills and Low-e coating simply slow the transfer process to the other side.


"You should also feel the convection from a high emperature variance from the outside to the inside (a draft) through the glass - not around the window."

Wrong again, again. Convection is the transfer of heat caused by the movement of a fluid (i.e. water or air). Glass is impermiable to both. You will feel no draft through it... only around it.


"Any reputable company would also have resource to test."

Need I say it again? I invite anyone who has purchased windows from The Home Depot to call them out for a certified gas percentage analysis. If successful. I will personally paint your house and mow your lawn for life.


Top
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:12 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:00 am
Posts: 32
Location: Central US
Offline
I am only working on intuition here (I have not done these tests), but I believe one could do the following to check for a major argon/krypton gas leak in a window:

- Have a known good window and a suspected bad window on the same side of the house with very similar outside glass temperatures. The windows should be of the same model/construction, etc.
- Check the windows at a time when both are shaded, but the outside ambient temperature has a significant difference from the temperature inside the home.
- Measure the inside and outside glass temperature of both windows. Be sure the outside temperatures are fairly close. Be sure and measure at the same point on the window, such as the approximate glass center.
- Calculate the outside/inside temperature difference in the two windows and if one is significantly worse (smaller), there is potential for a gas leak there. If they are the same, either there may be no gas leaks, or both have leaked.

I believe you could do something similar to check for low-E deterioration (which I understand is usually the result of seal failure) if the sun was shining through both windows at the same angle on the same side of the house for the same length of time and you recorded the temperature on the carpet, for example, directly where the sun was hitting the floor.

If there are reasons why this wouldn't work, assuming you take measurements properly (there are lots of places a homeowner could err), I would love to know why, since it may help teach me things I don't yet understand about the gas and LowE coatings.


Top
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Reply
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:20 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:54 am
Posts: 19
Location: Albany, NY
Offline
FenEx wrote:
Ok... time to put my boots on.

"When a seal is broken or on the way - typically condesation will develop between the panes -- and over time the LOW E will also oxidze and show a definitive haze."

Wrong... the spacers are completely filled with desiccant and will absorb infiltrating moisture for many years to come.

REPONSE: ONLY to a certain extent - not to which I am referring to nor that which I have seen however the original poster has an issue with trying to find a way to find out if there is a seal failure or not - and I belive I may have helped him/her into finding a way a home owner could find a more definitive answer.... I'd put money on it this original posters problem is a possible claim which is being denied or otherwise ignored.

"Otherwise you may also take the temperature of the glass on the outside and then on the inside of the glass - Since Gas deals with conductivity of heat pass through you should see a significant temperature between the two panes." KEYWORDS ARE: "SIGNIFICANT TEMPERATURE DIFFERENCE."

Wrong again. The glass is the super-conductor here and will absorb heat at a much faster rate than air or any gas fill. Even a dual pane without gas will show a difference in to out as the inner pane is absorbing ambient and radiant heat from the inside. Gas fills and Low-e coating simply slow the transfer process to the other side.

TRUE - my point exactly! Hence a temperature difference with higher variance.

"You MAY also feel the convection from a high temperature variance from the outside to the inside (a draft) through the glass - not from around the window."

Wrong again, again. Convection is the transfer of heat caused by the movement of a fluid (i.e. water or air). Glass is impermiable to both. You will feel no draft through it... only around it.

RESPONSE: I believe what you are saying is wrong - in your words is in fact a true definiton - perhaps you may want to re-read yoru reply?
The bottom line is that a clear inslated glass unit (such as a dual pane witout the gas or one which the gas has escaped) will transmit heat at a rate of 60-75% +/- - again - in extreme inside/outside temperature differences this could very well create its own draft from convetion (transmission of AIR (between the panes) a draft from the glass alone - re-read your own definiton?


"Any reputable company would also have resource to test."

Need I say it again? I invite anyone who has purchased windows from The Home Depot to call them out for a certified gas percentage analysis. If successful. I will personally paint your house and mow your lawn for life.

RESPONSE: WHY WOULD YOU NEED A TEST ON THD WINDOWS? -- AS THD WOULD SIMPLY REPLACE THE SASH IF EVEN A QUESTION OF SEAL FAILURE - hence there is no test required - it is about customer satisfaction and a company that has the resources to back its warranties.

BTW: Does your company offer this testing?

and finally -- My lawn will need its first mowing sometime in March or early April - I have siding and brick exterior - so perhaps some car washing is in order??.





You are getting the boots on?

This is a wonderful thing... I could also use some snow shoveling here..

See my response(s) in italicized bolded and underlined text above

I remain.

Ck


Top
 
 
 Post subject: Reply
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:01 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Illinois
Offline
As expected, you attempted to dance around each and every point. Here's the short version and conclusion:

Most highly desiccated seals may be failed (leaking gas) and not show any visual signs (the seal issue covered by warranties) for many years. You were incorrect.

I just shot my office windows (dual-pane, no low-e or argon) with an infrared thermometer. Difference inside to out at the same spot was 9 degrees. That's significant. You would need a side-by-side comparitive value with and without gas of identical products, exposures and sizes to even speculate what is causing the difference. - You were incorrect.

Oh, and then you stated, "The bottom line is that a clear inslated glass unit (such as a dual pane witout the gas or one which the gas has escaped) will transmit heat at a rate of 60-75% +/-."

60-75%+/- of what??? Again, your HD simplified training manuals are incorrect and misleading to consumers. The NFRC uses U-factors for a reason, it is measured in BTUS per hour, per degree Fahrenheit, per square foot. You are throwing around numbers and percentages without any scientific data to back it.

You clearly stated, (before your revision in the latter post), "You should also feel the convection from a high emperature variance from the outside to the inside (a draft) through the glass - not around the window."
As I said, glass is impermiable to airflow- A draft can't pass through it! The Home Depot training program can't beat the laws of physics. You were incorrect.

You stated. "Any reputable company would also have resource to test" and followed it up with: "WHY WOULD YOU NEED A TEST ON THD WINDOWS?"

I don't think I need to even respond to that reversal.


You stated that if you were wrong, you'de accept it for the sake of consumers. How bout it?


Top
 
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group