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 Post subject: What type and why????
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:35 pm
Posts: 4
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Anderson - Pella - Schuco

What is the best for money?( price comparison)

Why one over the other?

Live in Minnesota and never want to paint a
window again.

Thanks


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:40 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:20 am
Posts: 96
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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You shouldn't have to paint any of the three as all have maintenance free exteriors. Andersen and Pella are aluminum clad, Schuco is vinyl and assuming your contractor is cladding the exterior you'll be fine. To be safe ask for PVC coated aluminum cladding -- it will hold up better over time.

Andersen and Pella most likely are going to be full frame replacements, which are more expensive and more disruptive than the Schuco replacement install. Schuco is available in a triple pane and with its U value of .22 it easily beats both Pella and Anderson's U value of .32. Schuco uses the TPS glazing system -- clearly the best in the industry. TPS has never had a documented seal failure, and they guarantee a 99% gas fil rate, something Andersen or Pella can't touch. Andersen and Pella both use Intercept -- which is old technology and unreliable at best. Schuco's warranty is also a lot stronger (and will soon be even stronger yet), than Andersen or Pella as well. Schuco has a lifetime, non prorated warranty.

For the money, Schuco is your best bet for long term performance, energy efficiency, and warranty.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:43 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Clearly you have three great choices in your windows.

Schuco has an all vinyl window which will offer you one of the best windows in todays market. Your choices on exterior colors are limited when it comes to the natural pigment. Pella has their Impervia fiberglass unit that can give you as much as the Schuco can if installed right. It can also offer a rainbow of colors to match your requirements. If painted correctly these windows should never need any re-coating again. Andersen has the same products they've been pushing for years. Their R&D department must have gone to lunch and never returned. They have on the other hand bought out Eagle Window & Door this past year. This will give them some power to infiltrate the upper end market that they've never really had a good hold on.

Andersen's replacement window is the Renewal System. You can search the internet to find all the Pro's & Con's which will overwhelm your mind.

Pella has a couple choices for you. They have their all vinyl product called Thermastar. Not a high performance product but worthy if installed right. Their Renovations pocket replacement is great. It is aluminum clad on the outside with a wooden interior (which you may not want because of painting). The only downfall is they don't make all the windows some homeowners require.

I'm stepping out of the closet for the first time right here today folks. Here goes. After some long hours of product analysis I'm now supporting Vetter windows. Yes, you heard it right. I've spent some long hours going over their product inside and out. I find it offers me all the products I could ever need for the customers broad selection range. Their pricing is fair and delivery is exceptional. So take some time to check their product out. If your in MN you can call Window & Door Resources out of Maple Plain!! Good Luck!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:53 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 430
Location: New Jersey
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Interesting that you brought up Vetter I had seen them at the Builders show in Orlando and liked what I saw. I'm having them contact me regarding their wood retro fit product something that has been missing from my line. They didn't have one at the show but they decribed it as an attractive high end rival to the pella. I was wondering if you have seen the wood and what you thought of it in terms of quality and appearance.

Bill


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:02 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Bill, I was clearly impressed with what I looked at. As you can tell! I usually hold my thoughts hostage until I proove them junky. These have been difficult so far for me to find an issue.

As for the wood interior with vinyl or aluminum clad (yes, either one of these exteriors with a "Real Wood" interior). The best part of it is the wood choices are unbelievable!!! You can get Clear Pine, Ash, Oak, Maple, Cherry or Alder on the inside. You can also get white or tan vinyl jambs if needed. All the wood is truely pure all the way through. It's not just a laminate over pressed wood. Truely a great choice for the wood lovers in our neck of the woods!!! Give me a call Bill and I'll fill you in.

Guy


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:30 am 

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:35 pm
Posts: 4
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Why Vetter over Schuco???

Price diff?

Quality? Looks?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:14 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:35 pm
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Guy
Joined: 07 Oct 2004
Posts: 332
Location: Minnesota

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:04 am Post subject: Reply with quote
The other guys here really covered everything in response to the initial question. I just had to chime in my nickels worth.

Vetter compared to Marvin & Andersen? I almost fell out of my chair! No comparison at all in any way! Run from this salesman. He's numb in many places!


Was this you?????


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:06 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:31 pm
Posts: 5
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Anyone heard of or know about Preservation Windows by Alside?
I know they boast a really low U value (.16) for triple glaze.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:45 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:11 am
Posts: 79
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I looked up Vetter windows and I must say, from what I could see in those pictures, that wood interior surly adds richness and warmth to a room to my eyes.

There are many things to consider when choosing a window, there are trade offs in every window. U Factor is just one of the trade offs.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:48 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:11 am
Posts: 79
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So Vetter offers Clear Pine, Ash, Oak, Maple, Cherry or Alder as a choice, and these different woods will there own unique grain and hardness. Hardness becomes important if you a big dog that likes to put his front paws on the window to look out. Those claws crease soft wood.

The beauty of wood to the eye is only on it's surface, it does not matter if the wood is thick or thin. There is one advantage I know of when it comes to a pressed on veneer, is that since it is pressed, it takes on the qualities of a hard wood.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:19 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:28 pm
Posts: 243
Location: WISCONSIN
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Some interesting post to me because I'm looking for a line of custom sized wood replacement windows. Until now we've sold Eagle and Marvin. First to answer 010293 the Preservation is Alsides best reserved for high volume dealers. It comes with a knock out brochure and all kinds of goodies for the salesperson. The u for a double hung tri glazed is .17-.19 depends on size etc,it features foam in the frame, Super Spacer. and block and tackle balancer(which Alside really needed..their coil did not operate smoothly) and did have an air test of .09. I think as we speak that's getting retested it may be higher. On the surface it appears to be much better than average. But if you talk to anyone who has put in thousands of them like I have, that installer well tell you their tolerances vary and gets to be a headache. True their a good co and well replace any sash that might be a hair too big.........but I just got tired of doing that, since your not compensated for your time. This may not make much difference to the consumer since bottom line is it is taken care of but anyone that has Alside products and are have trouble locking them, that was usually the problem. One other thing on the Preservation...they quit the shadow groove on the welds, so the window is not as attractive as it was.
Now back to the wood replacement lines. Very few people can do a good stain job on pine. Most don't even know theres four or five steps to get a professional appearance and the average job looks like crap....so much for the beauty of wood thing. I've priced Marvin, Pella, Weathershield and eagle-from top to bottom the prices vary about $50.00. We chose Eagle because they well stain in the factory, but your talking over $400.00 per window plus tax dealer cost and Eagle is no Marvin. So per post made here were going to look at Vetter and maybe in the end go with comfort Line Fiberglass. We looked at their oak interior series last week and I've never seen a prettier interior oak finish and they've got about 1000 color combo's which they will finish at the factory and in as far as durability, on the surface outruns everything(sounds like I'm pitching them)but what I honestly see is a single line of windows that well fill most of my needs for that type of market. It boast better #s than the wood windows-offers triple glaze with krypton (not offered from many wood people if any) excellent glass warranty- probably because of the low thermal expansion and I can see I'm talking myself into these and the rep hasn't come yet. Any insight from pros on this line would be greatly appreciated.
I've rattled long enough--everyone have a great weekend.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:30 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:28 pm
Posts: 243
Location: WISCONSIN
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Oops almost forgot, Windoze-the number one spacer in the world is not clearly TPS.Don't get me wrong because I can see Super Spacer possibly getting dethroned by TPS but as of this date the only verifyable test ever done in the world comparing the best spacers, which were Azon, TPS. Duraseal and Super Spacer, and I think a few others was done by the GGF(glass and glazing fenestration in London in 2002 showed Super Spacer a winner in every category, especially longivity. I guess I'll have to get another copy of that test for all to see because I;m sure I'll get a response or two. I'm not biased , hell I don't even have access to either one with my lines. But as of today clearly SUPER SPACER IS NUMBER ONE IN THE WORLD. But I'd love to be proven wrong....go for it guys.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:16 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:58 pm
Posts: 1335
Location: Northern & Central Illinois, Chicago suburbs
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I think your assumption is flawed and I will explain my reasons I think so.
But first, let me say that I think Superspacer is a very good product. I sell products that have it myself. I would definitely recommend it as an upgrade from Intercept or many other spacers whenever it is available.

I've also read the article you are referring to. Your conclusion is based on tests by a lab, which results were then made into an article written by Edgetech, the manufacturer. (advertising.)
These tests showed a u-value thermal advantage across the board to superspacer of about .03 Not exactly a conclusive advantage with that miniscule of a difference.

Now, what will happen to Superspacer's .03 performance advantage when significant gas loss occurs (in many units) within just the first 10 years? (Performance numbers drop) This is mostly because of human error in the application of the secondary seal.

In lab tests, results show TPS units to still have 99% of their gas after 15 years, based on accelerated testing. Superspacer is not even close.
There are a couple reasons for this TPS advantage. First, the TPS system is completely automated, which virtually takes human error out of the equation.
TPS is also gas-tight right from the second it is made, even before the secondary seal is applied. The TPS material is not permeable to gas, and has a much larger adhesion area on the glass. It just outperforms the competition, period.
Other type systems can also lose gas between the time the unit is made and the secondary seal is applied because of the primary system not being gas tight.

The TPS sytem has a seal life expectancy from between 80 to 300 years, based on accelerated testing. Now that is a long lasting spacer!

If you are going to actually pay for expensive gas fill in your windows, using TPS can give you piece of mind that it will be performing for you decades down the road.


Here is a 2003 article for your reading pleasure written by bystronics. They are a manufacturer of equipment for making both Superspacer and TPS.
http://www.usglassmag.com/AGG/Spring%202003/Energy.htm


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 Post subject: Reply
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:20 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Illinois
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You will find that most of the published articles on SS performance were actually written by Edgetech. Great product and a phenominal marketing job.

In the European testing of spacers, they allowed each manufacturer to provide the units to be tested. The European lines using TPS primarily use a silicon secondary seal. The residential units here in the states use two-part polysulfide for the structural secondary seal, which is a better performer with regards to gas retention. EVERY TPS unit here is edge-deleted- a process that removes the fragile soft-coat low-e around the edge of glass to allow the seals to adhere much better to the glass itself.

Edgetech provided their SS product as well. If you read many of the Edgetech articles and manufacturer information, you will find that they strongly recommend edge-deletion and put great emphasis on the necessity for proper application of any product. The problem is, they do not make it mandatory for manufacturers applying their product. There are numerous articles available discussing the importance and benefits of edge-deletion. I believe Cardinal Glass has also made it mandatory for their products.

For those of you that have toured window plants, you may have noticed that the Low-E soft-coated glass is very protected during handling as it can be easily damaged. This being the case, why would you want to adhere sealants to such a delicate coating instead of directly to the glass itself? Many of the products utilizing Super Spacer are NOT edge-deleted. This is not an assumption, I have witnessed the entire production process. I wonder how the test numbers would have changed if they would have used a random sampling of windows sold here in the US including some that were not edge-deleted and had the SS applied by hand.

The SS is considered a reverse dual-seal spacer. The first seal is an acrylic adhesive and not really a seal at all, especially if it's stuck to a fragile coating like Low-E soft coat. If you look at a piece of SS, it has peel back films on each edge that protect the sticky (tape) edges that hold it in place while the secondary seal is applied. The spacer is then pierced to allow for gas filling.

The window lines I carry use both TPS and SS as well. Which is better, TPS or SS? I'd say that they are both excellent choices, "IF" they are properly applied using the best available manufacturing methods. I'd lean towards "all of the time", verses "some of the time".


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:32 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:28 pm
Posts: 243
Location: WISCONSIN
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Thank you very much FenEx and window4u. I knew that post would get some good results and I respect pretty much whatever you guys say. So in a perfect world with everything being done perfect the first 10 yrs their pretty close to equal, and after that the edge goes to TPS because of less gas loss. The downside to the automated system lies in the fact that I have recently seen two seal failures in a Schuco. The first one in a bay window upon installation and the second one was the replacement, and the customer is now waiting for the third. Both failures were in the same bottom sash of a double hung flanker. Could be handling....who knows. But a automated system has to be repaired by humans when it goes awry.Bottom line here is I guess it's not a perfect world.........I wish all my customers knew that. Again thanks guys, and while I've got your ear can you give me your honest opinion about the Comfortline windows. I noticed in one of their samples the old spiral balance...ugh and I'm not sure about their spacer or whose loe-e they use other than that I sure liked the oak interior.


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