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 Post subject: Re: Installation Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:41 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:08 pm
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Appreciate the analogy

I see Sunrise is a superior window, but seems the Barrington may be the better value for my needs, since no appreciable utility savings. And, little opening/closing of window. So, no wear and tear.

Have to see if the wife thinks the Sunrise is worth 700.00 more as far as looks go.


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 Post subject: Re: Installation Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:23 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:28 pm
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My suggestion was that you look at the Sunrise Essentials IN ADDITION to the Soft-lite Barrington. They are both pretty comparable and you might get a better price on one of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Installation Question
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:27 am 

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I will do that

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Installation Question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:44 am 
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I would not put the Simonton 5050 in the class of the Barrington. They are not comparable in nearly all performance categories with the exception of VT.

The Sunrise product is a more apt comparison.


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 Post subject: Re: Installation Question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:58 am 

Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:28 pm
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I disagree. I carry both windows and with the exception of some debatable benefits of slightly less air infiltration on the Barrington, they are comparable. That's offset by Simontons slightly better customer service.


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 Post subject: Re: Installation Question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:10 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:08 pm
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The companies I am looking at don't offfer Simonton.

I will probably go with Barrington or Polaris UltaWeld and do one half at time. Still need to see Polaris guy.

We don't need 20year windows and rarely open them.

Restorations is still a possibilty depending on Polaris price and feeling I get from company..

You guys have been great,

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Installation Question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:38 pm 
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EcoStar Remodeling wrote:
I disagree. I carry both windows and with the exception of some debatable benefits of slightly less air infiltration on the Barrington, they are comparable. That's offset by Simontons slightly better customer service.


"debatable benefits"

I am not saying that it is the single determinant of what makes a quality window, however, you yourself regularly quote air infiltration as performance matrix when you talk about windows and say to not buy a window with an AI above 0.15. An average of the air infiltration rates listed for the 5050 looks to be 0.19

In this application, the Barrington has about 1/3rd the leakage of the 5050.

I am not inferring that the 5050 is a bad window, however, the thermal, structural, and air infiltration are all better in the Soft-Lite offering.


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 Post subject: Re: Installation Question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:38 pm 
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rugmankc wrote:
The companies I am looking at don't offfer Simonton.

I will probably go with Barrington or Polaris UltaWeld and do one half at time. Still need to see Polaris guy.

We don't need 20year windows and rarely open them.

Restorations is still a possibilty depending on Polaris price and feeling I get from company..

You guys have been great,

Thanks


The Polaris UltraWeld, while a bit bulky, is a really solid product and performer.

Quality control is quite good in my experiences as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Installation Question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:40 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:08 pm
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They did seem boxy in the pic on the web. Haven't seen one in person yet.


Ken


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 Post subject: Re: Installation Question
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:06 am 

Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:28 pm
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Windows on Washington wrote:
EcoStar Remodeling wrote:
I disagree. I carry both windows and with the exception of some debatable benefits of slightly less air infiltration on the Barrington, they are comparable. That's offset by Simontons slightly better customer service.


"debatable benefits"

I am not saying that it is the single determinant of what makes a quality window, however, you yourself regularly quote air infiltration as performance matrix when you talk about windows and say to not buy a window with an AI above 0.15. An average of the air infiltration rates listed for the 5050 looks to be 0.19

In this application, the Barrington has about 1/3rd the leakage of the 5050.

I am not inferring that the 5050 is a bad window, however, the thermal, structural, and air infiltration are all better in the Soft-Lite offering.



Both windows have U-factors at .30 so I don't understand why you think the Barrington has better thermal properties. I think the recommendation as to which glass to use has more to do with the geographics of the elevation. Thermal property recommendations change depending on the application. I believe you sell and recommend Marvin Infinity which has an air infiltration rate of around .26. Hopefully you are warning your customers that you sell windows that will "leak like a seive" I believe is the way you describe it.

Once again, it comes down to not a single point being the main reason for purchasing a particular window. If a consumer asked me whether they should purchase a window with an air infiltration rating of .19 for $400 or one with an air infiltration rating of .07 for $500. I'd probably recommend the $400 window as being the better value, assuming everything else was equal.


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 Post subject: Re: Installation Question
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:50 am 
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EcoStar Remodeling wrote:
Windows on Washington wrote:
EcoStar Remodeling wrote:
I disagree. I carry both windows and with the exception of some debatable benefits of slightly less air infiltration on the Barrington, they are comparable. That's offset by Simontons slightly better customer service.


"debatable benefits"

I am not saying that it is the single determinant of what makes a quality window, however, you yourself regularly quote air infiltration as performance matrix when you talk about windows and say to not buy a window with an AI above 0.15. An average of the air infiltration rates listed for the 5050 looks to be 0.19

In this application, the Barrington has about 1/3rd the leakage of the 5050.

I am not inferring that the 5050 is a bad window, however, the thermal, structural, and air infiltration are all better in the Soft-Lite offering.



Both windows have U-factors at .30 so I don't understand why you think the Barrington has better thermal properties. I think the recommendation as to which glass to use has more to do with the geographics of the elevation. Thermal property recommendations change depending on the application. I believe you sell and recommend Marvin Infinity which has an air infiltration rate of around .26. Hopefully you are warning your customers that you sell windows that will "leak like a seive" I believe is the way you describe it.

Once again, it comes down to not a single point being the main reason for purchasing a particular window. If a consumer asked me whether they should purchase a window with an air infiltration rating of .19 for $400 or one with an air infiltration rating of .07 for $500. I'd probably recommend the $400 window as being the better value, assuming everything else was equal.


According to the thermal data that I have on the 5050 (via Simonton's website), the best thermal data that I see out of a double pane 5050 is a 0.30 which requires a Krypton fill (which equals more $$$).

The Barrington gets it done with argon and can get down to a 0.28 with a non-metallic spacer system.

These are small differences and very unlikely to be worth any real advantage, however, ever point on a U-factor at that point is a 3% (relative) improvement.

The Marvin Infinity is, currently, the best looking and most function of the fiberglass windows built today in my opinion. We do tell out customers about the comparatively high air infiltration (0.27 vs. 0.10 and below) but the decision to go with the Infinity is usually for reasoning other than performance numbers. As you and I both know, there are far better performers in the vinyl family and at lower price points. If you want Fiberglass, you want fiberglass.

That being said, there are some newer Fiberglass windows in development that will have the balance of performance and the look of Fiberglass in the near future.

I agree about the value comparison you list, however, I was just specifically commenting on the 5050 to Barrington comparison. We will have to agree to disagree in this case, but I stand by my original assessment that the Barrington is better built (thicker vinyl - don't quote me on this one but I am fairly confident that the mil thickness on the Barrington is heavier, extruded screen frame, slightly better balance assembly, etc) and a better performer by comparison.


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 Post subject: Re: Installation Question
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:40 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:28 pm
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Sorry, you are simply wrong. Simonton 5050 double hung with ETC Starter glass is. 30 with argon. I'm at a show right now so I don't have time to look it up but the Barrington brochure in my hand shows it at. 30 with Low-Plus and. 29 with SB 70.


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 Post subject: Re: Installation Question
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:16 pm 
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I am basing the thermal data off of Simtonon's website posted data (see below). If they have some new data not up to date in the pdf, that would account for the inconsistency.

This is what I was going off of: http://www.simonton.com/TopMenu/Trade/ThermalData.pdf?i=207&g=0

They don't show a 5050 with an intercept/supercept spacer and argon at a 0.30. I don't doubt the U-Factor you have reported but navigating the NFRC with Simonton is a bit of a pain the behind because they don't put the model name up but instead use a model number that is more difficult to trace backwards.

Even considering the thermal numbers as equals, which they are not when comparing SB70 vs. 366), I stand by the statement that the Barrington is a better window.

Doesn't mean the 5050 is bad by any stretch, just that the Barrington gets the nod in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Installation Question
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:09 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:28 pm
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Check the Simonton website for the most current information. The fact that NFRC has the u factor at. 30 with krypton should tell you their numbers are incorrect. Sorry, I'm on my portable or I would post the link.


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 Post subject: Re: Installation Question
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:16 pm 
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EcoStar Remodeling wrote:
Check the Simonton website for the most current information. The fact that NFRC has the u factor at. 30 with krypton should tell you their numbers are incorrect. Sorry, I'm on my portable or I would post the link.


That is where I got the information (the pdf on the thermal data for the 5050).

See the link that I posted from before.

The "Energy Efficiency" link that they have makes no reference to a specific unit but rather refers to the glass packages as a whole. Obviously there can be thermal differences between units.

Now stop posting back to me and go sell some stuff...!!! :lol:


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