Verde, Okna, Vanguard - oh my???

[orchidcrazy]

We are back to looking at windows after taking a break due to indecision last fall. I've looked at Marvin's, Anderson's last year and we crossed them off. We have 3 dealers that all have good reputations, like their installs, going to talk to one more on Monday. Our least expensive quote was Verde which does not include replacing rotten sills (he quoted me 1-200.00 per window and we have 4 with rot issues that can be seen from the outside of the house) The quote does not include exterior wrap of our current exterior wood trim, that would be an upcharge of about 60 per window 1K up is the Okna 500 which does include minor sill work and wrap of the exterior trim. The Vanguard quote was the highest by another 4K, included all sill repairs needed, wrapping of the exterior trim, and he 'threw in' a storm door which would cost me about 650. I have to get the Verde dealer to quote me with the wrapping of the exterior, but aside from that, window to window, which window is 'best' and why? Listed #1, #2, #3 - how would that look? Is the Vanguard worth 4K more than the other 2?

Our home is a 1984 colonial in the NorthEast with original single pane wood windows with exterior storms; most leak so anything would be an improvement from what we have. I know have a few that will not stay closed, and am tired of covering with ugly plastic in the winter - blows off some windows that are leaking badly anyway. We have 3 teens, so college for all is on the horizon and we do not consider this our 'forever' home although who knows, it could be. I do have an additional person to chat with early next week who sells the Provia Aeris series. Where would the VT800 fit in with the windows I've seen so far.

Thanks in advance for any responses!

[Windows on Washington]

How do the quotes compare once you add in the sill repairs and the wrapping?

Sounds like the Okna and Verde would be pretty close at that point.

[orchidcrazy]

I have to wait on the exact numbers for the Verde as installed like the Okna, but from what I can gather, yes, the Verde and Okna should be quite close.

Hubby liked the Vanguard that he saw, he hasn't seen any of the others.

Wondering how the windows would rate 1,2,3,4 for the Verde, Vanguard, Okna 500 and Provia vt800. I know all the numbers, but from the people who work with and install these windows, what do YOU think of them? To me, that means more than a piece of paper because you work with the product, the repairs, the warranty issues. I do realize the install all has a huge part in the success or failure of a window.

Thank you!

[Windows on Washington]

The Okna 500 is the performance winner of that group.

In terms of frame profile and visible glass, they are about the same.

I think the Vanguard is a good looking window but the times I have shown both, folks find the 500 just as good looking.

[HomeSealed]

In performance from top to bottom: (u-value, air infiltration, design pressure)
Okna 500
Sunrise Vanguard
Sunrise Verde (may be able to equal the Vanguard with proper options)
Provia.

The Okna and the Vanguard are both in the top 5 or so of vinyl windows available IMO, so you would not go wrong with either. I'd focus a little more on the installation detail and level of trust that you have in the installation company.

You have 3 very solid choices that you've seen, not sure that the Provia is worth the look. Doesn't hurt to see it though i guess.

[orchidcrazy]

So, got my numbers more settled. The guy who I had spoken to about the Okna windows has sold the business, it is now part of some other business and I don't know this new owner or his reputation enough to put this type of money into it. So I have been on the hunt for another Okna dealer. Anyone know if Window King out of the Bronx is anything like their Angie's List reviews?

My numbers are as follow for 2 sliders, 2 solid picture windows which are each flanked by 2 DH and then 17 DHs. All (except for the stationary center glass of the picture windows) would be contoured GBG.

Vanguard $26,921 with sill damage repaired, exterior trim wrapped and a 'free' Provia storm door thrown in.

Verde $20,352 sills would be 100-200 to replace depending on wood or composite and wrapping exterior trim would be an additional 1150. So Total about $21,902. I get a $1K additional discount if I do this job all at once versus in stages. Dealer has 12 months at 0% available - nice to retain the cash for a year although how much does it really get you in this economy?

Okna 800DLX $20,584 same dealer as above so same extra charges but no financing available on the Okna. Would be about 20,984.

Ability to hang on to cash for a year vs a window you all think highly of - hmmmm. However, in reading this weekend since you all pointed me to Okna, I keep reading that the 500 is a nicer looking window. Should I keep after Window King for a 500 quote? I did contact once other person who installs Okna, but I think they are out of New Jersey and didn't hear back from them as of yet. I also read that Sunrise has the nicer sliding glass door - true or personal opinion of the person who wrote what I read?

Also, I am in CT, house is a 1984 colonial. Like the thought of wrapped exterior trim, some dealers offer it as part of the deal, the Sunrise/Okna dealer above says that not everyone wants/needs it so for them it is an additional cost that they are upfront about. I know from reading that it has pros/cons, so what so you, my Northeast pros? Wrap or paint?

[TheWindowNerd]

The 800DX would be the window for me. Besides being the best performer it is also the nicest look.

Capping or no capping? Depends on what you as the home owner think about it. Do you want the maintance of painting the exterior every 5 years? Most important is the persons doing the capping, there are guys who are artist and then there are hacks, both do capping. You seem very through with the window selection but seem overly swayed by cost, with to this point little research as to the install. You are now into the final again critical choice, do your research. Go see 2 completed similar type installs. Do you have flat casing or contoured on the exterior? Will they do contoured caps( do any of them use a Brake Buddy or similar) or multi step or just one big box cap? Ask them to draw the shape of the cap, this may be out of the realm of the salesman, or bend you a small sample. This last step will also tell you something about the service level of who you are dealing with.

[orchidcrazy]

Thank you!

Yes, swayed by cost; it is a huge expense and I want to spend my money wisely - the best choice for the best price with the best install.

From what I've read, the Okna is our #1 choice, I just wish there were more options as far as dealers so I had more to compare. I have the guy who just bought out a long standing business that was local but is now part of a larger company - nothing to back up his stuff as he just took over the business in April. I have a guy who is a drive from me, seems eager for the job, family business, good reviews, I've asked about install techniques but don't get details; I'll have to push him on it more. There is another dealer out of New York in the Bronx, lots of reviews on Angie's list, but many buy a package deal advertised there, have to delve into them a bit further.

I will start asking more specifics about window installs and reading up on proper techniques. As far as window capping, I asked here because you ask one installer and they tell you it isn't necessary and I get the 'in this area' thing and then you talk to another and it is standard and they wonder why you would question it. I feel that the info I get here is worth a lot, the pros here respond with opinions, information, that isn't tied to a sale. Thanks so much for the response and for providing more info for me to look into. Never heard of a Brake Buddy and I do have contoured casing; appreciate the info!

[Delaware Mike]

The only salesman that can really address in depth installation technical questions correctly and truthfully are older ex-tradesman with broke down bodies. These guys don't usually make it as successful salesman in a high-pressure industry for the most part. There are some out though, but in most cases they would be found in more of the "Mom & Pop" smaller home improvement types of outfits.

Love both the OKNA and Sunrise products. Anthony and I both agree that the 800dx is one of the, if not the best product out there right now, and it's our best seller. Regarding the exterior capping, if I'm working on a very old home with detailed first growth exterior millwork that's in nice shape with all kinds of beautiful coves, steps, and beads I generally don't like to cap this stuff because it takes away from the appearance. Many times these homes are more of a fit for a upper end fiberglass product or Andersen Woodwright too.

There are two techniques for capping exterior brick molding trim casings. One can utilize a Tapco "Brake Buddy" or Van Mark "Trim Former." Both basically do the same thing which mimics the profile of wood brick molding. They are metal housed devices that the technicians pushes along the siding brake over the aluminum to capture this detail. One can also do this freehand by flipping the aluminum over and performing some extra bends. One has to play around with this technique for sometime to dial the math in and make the miter joints align correctly. If you currently have wider cottage style flat 5/4" trim boards as exterior casings this technique wouldn't really be applicable.

[HomeSealed]

Great advice from the previous two pros. Some of the procedural stuff can vary by area, but in my market, some things that separate window pros from everyday hacks are:

-Exterior install with capping. This means that none of your interior woodwork is disturbed. It also minimizes mess and the exterior cladding is contributing to the low maintenance opening. Only full tear-outs or very detailed exterior woodwork really justify no cladding. The "caulk and walk" variety guys will r&r the interior stops, flop the window in and caulk.

-Exterior cladding detail. Any home with existing contoured trim should get contoured cladding unless flats are requested for some reason.

-Closed cell, low-expansion foam used around the install. Some guys that are too cheap or simply "behind the curve" of best practices still shove fiberglass in there.

- Integration with existing water management system. Does your home have drip caps on the existing windows? If so, the new cladding should tuck under it not over to preserve a proper drainage plane.

-Caulking. Does the sample work have nice clean caulk beads, or does it look a little sloppy like a guy that installs hardwood floors on Tuesday and windows on Thursday?

-Certifications and trade organization memberships. These show that a company has roots established increasing the likelihood of their being around to serve you down the road, and also shows that they take their craft seriously.

This is by no means a comprehensive list, but it does help to separate window PROS, from the imposters--- and again, there may be differences on some of those items by region...
I'd also add that I favor the Okna 800. It is a beautiful window. Not sure that I have ever heard anyone say that the 500 is better looking (although it looks nice too), but it (500) does have a slimmer frame for slightly more glass.
On the patio doors, both doors are very good to excellent, and have pros and cons. I favor the Okna door, as it is superior in every measurable area (u factor, air infiltration, etc), looks nice, and has a fully welded frame for long term performance. The Sunrise is also a good performer and has a little bit smoother operation, and a nifty top-hung screen.

[orchidcrazy]

Wow, many thanks Homesealed! This was a very helpful post to me and info I haven't been able to get on-line anywhere. I've been going back and forth with one installer since last year, something just didn't set right in my gut. We've decided on the Okna, we've decided on the dealer. Your post on the install describes what was set out to me yesterday and differs from the other one that didn't sit well with me, I just wasn't sure why. Have to bring hubby to show him the 800 vs 500, but I imagine we'll opt for the 800 series. Will report back....

Again, many thanks, you guys are awesome!