Questions after reading four years of posts....

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sdinmn

Questions after reading four years of posts....

#1 Post by sdinmn »

First, my thanks to the guys who contribute here -- especially while they're running their own businesses. You help bring clarity out of the mud!

I'm known for writing too much, so I'll try to keep this short. Here's my deal:

- mid-70s rambler with (AFAIK) original wood double-pane casements. Some windows really are starting to show their age and one pane has a hole in it. Parts are NLA, so we decided we should start replacing the windows. However, we don't plan to be in this house more than another 5-6 years. That's the plan, anyway.

- I've got three bids. I'd love to use toddinmn but his availability right now doesn't work for us. On-line reviews and neighbor experience with various installers are not encouraging. Apparently very few people are happy with their windows.

- Budget is really tight. It's a small job, which I know doesn't help. Even a 20% change in cost up or down makes a real difference. Still, I'd like to do this as right as I can given the circumstances.

- All bids are for new construction rather than inserts. All bids -- interestingly and surprisingly -- are for double-pane glass packages. None of these guys mentioned triple-pane until I brought it up. o.O

High Pressure Guy is quoting Soft-Lite Imperial LSes with double-pane Solar Low-E. His "final offer" came to about half of "list price" <eye roll here>. At that, it's about $1250 a window. It's the biggest window in the house (fixed light/fixed light/casement and the casement around the corner from it) but ... really??

Old Familiar Guy installed three doors for us a few years ago. Seems to be a fine job but... To keep the price down, Old Familiar is quoting double-pane Vista Panoramas with EcoSure Plus glass. I trust his guy to install properly, but Vista isn't well-regarded here. He'll bump up to Sunrise (line unspecified) for another 15-20%.

OFG claimed that Sunrise double-pane performed the same as EcoPlus' triple-pane. But he didn't recommend the EcoPlus triple-pane. He also made (in my opinion) too big a deal of doing heat-lamp tests. Couple this with my feeling that we borderline-overpaid for the doors they did earlier (Target) and I'm somewhat skeptical.

New Guy gets good reviews in Consumer's Checkbook. Quickest estimate visit of the lot, though -- blink and you'd miss him. New Guy is quoting Sunrise (again, line unspecified) at the same price as Old Familiar Guy. None of these bids are terribly specific, but it looks like the glass package and scope of work are essentially the same. All the bids are sketchy about things like foam, repairing rotten wood if they find some, etc.

Here are my questions:

Are middling Vista windows installed by a known-good installer better than Sunrises installed by a good-but-unknown installer?

Would a Sunrise insert make a better install than a Vista new-construction window?

I have to think *any* decent window we put in now will beat what we've got. But is triple pane worth maybe a 20-25% upgrade cost given how long we plan to be in the house?

There's steel siding on the house that we can't match visually. Can a new-construction window really be installed *properly* without disturbing it? This is unclear to me even after all my reading here.

Our house is on the higher end of prices in a blue-collar neighborhood -- granite countertops still are uncommon and vinyl floors are okay. I'm guessing most buyers won't recognize (or care) if the windows are inserts instead of new-construction, and that a full set of decent new windows will mean more at sale time than replacing just a few windows with Soft-Lite Imperial LSes or upper-ine Sunrises. True?


I hope I haven't left things out, but please ask away!

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Questions after reading four years of posts....

#2 Post by Windows on Washington »

Answers and Opinions:

Both should be fine. There is something to be said for going with a known commodity in your past installer.

I still think the Sunrise is the better option.

There may be some mixing of terms here between new construction vs. full tear out. They are different things and the folks quoting a full tear out are likely not using a flanged (new construction) equip unit.

Don't buy a Soft-Lite window (that is magically dropped in price to $1,250) if that is your only option.

The Sunrise option (need to specify model) is probably the best and triple pane is probably a wise investment.

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Re: Questions after reading four years of posts....

#3 Post by TheWindowNerd »

Based on your plan to only be there 5 more years I would only do the double pane.
Sunrise should be great for the project, if it was double hungs I would stay with the SL Imp LS. I like the Sunrise casement.

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Re: Questions after reading four years of posts....

#4 Post by Windows on Washington »

Should have prefaced the statement on triple pane.

Get it quoted. If it is reasonable, I would do it.

It is a selling point for future buyers and energy (especially in MN) isn't getting any cheaper.

sdinmn

Re: Questions after reading four years of posts....

#5 Post by sdinmn »

Gentlemen, thank you for your assistance. My apologies for such a late response.

I ended up hiring New Guy. His quote was in the middle. It was for double-pane standard-glass Sunrise casements with the OptiView screens thrown in. I like the guy; he was available for my questions, even made a second visit (his choice) for trim matching, and seemed to know what he's talking about.

Of course, I'm no window expert, but the job "his" guys (long-time employees, not subs) did was methodical and neat. The window looks good and has performed nicely in sub-zero weather. I'm satisfied. I'm pretty sure this guy will get the nod for our future work.

The only comment that remains with me is about pricing. I'm counting this installation as four windows (see original post). That put the price over $800 per pane. Maybe it's that casements are by nature more expensive windows. Maybe Minnesota really is that much more expensive a place to run a business. Maybe there was something about this install that made it expensive (though that was made never clear to me in three quotes (and, again, NG's quote was in the middle).

But $800+ a pane seems high to me relative to the numbers I usually see here. I realize every job is different. I don't at all begrudge a guy a profitable business (I'm trying to run one myself and know how many costs there are) and apparently his installers are happy enough to stick with him for more than a decade. That's all good stuff.

And it surprised me that dropping down a line or two in quality really didn't save much money at all. That implies that labor is the big cost (not unexpected). On the other hand, upgrading to triple-pane bumped the estimates about 20-25% over the labor-included double-pane quotes. IMHO, that's no longer a trivial upgrade, even if we were living with those windows for the next 30 years.

I don't know as there's any more to say; just my observations after going through the entire process. Again, my thanks. Happy New Year!

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Re: Questions after reading four years of posts....

#6 Post by Windows on Washington »

Happy New Year to you as well and keep us posted with some pictures and future feedback.

Its really hard to put a formula to pricing which is why most guys will respectfully decline to comment on specific numbers. The cost of doing business varies from town to town and certainly state to state.

If you are happy with the quality of the windows and the install, then you did well.

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Re: Questions after reading four years of posts....

#7 Post by TheWindowNerd »

your mention of trim matching may indicate that you did full tear outs/full frame units.
If that is the case that would make the $800 per window very reasonable.
For us if we compare an insert quote to a full frame with new interior casing it is $250 to $300 more per window.

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Re: Questions after reading four years of posts....

#8 Post by HomeSealed »

+1. Many variables make it hard to nail down, but $800 is not out of the ordinary, particulary with a few options and/or installation details.
Perhaps the biggest thing that many people don't realize is how the size and overhead of the company profoundly affects the price. Contracting is one of the easiest businesses to get into in terms of licensing and startup costs, and when combined with the fact that most guys who swing hammers aren't known for being extraordinarily "business savvy", its no wonder that home improvement contractors are one of the most complained about industries and companies generally fail within the first 5 years... Point is, what could be a huge profit margin for a one-man, home-based operation, will be far less for a company with showroom, employees, etc.

As WoW stated, if you got a good product and install from an established company, it sounds like you are in pretty good shape.

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