Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

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mfer2k
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Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

#1 Post by mfer2k »

Hi All,

I'm new to the forum, have been reading up for days, and was hoping for some individual feedback to see if I can get some objective opinions specific to my remaining questions.

I recently bought a house in Connecticut, I need to replace about 25 windows in my home (mostly 3'x5') and I am looking for the best bang for my buck. Really what I'm looking for in a window is something that will hold up well over time (efficiency is great but not my top priority).

In this forum I've read great things about Okna, Sunrise Vanguard, and Soft-Lite Elements--these seem to be the strongest recommendations (Kensington Quantum 2 has been mentioned as well). What price ranges are people typically seeing for these windows? I think I read mostly in the $500 range, I'm assuming that does not include installation?

I know this is a vinyl window forum, but how would these compare to an Andersen 400 series wood window that I could get for around $500 per window before installation as well?

Would a Simonton window be a better value for what I'm looking for? Does anyone have a price range and recommended window model for this brand based on my needs?

Your feedback will be much appreciated as I am very confused and lost in the world of replacement windows.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

#2 Post by Windows on Washington »

The Andersen 400 is a solid offering but will not have the efficiency or air infiltration numbers of the 3 vinyl options that you mentioned. They aren't wood either so depending on the look you are going for, it may be the better option as well.

The Simonton 5500 is an okay vinyl window but looks and feels largely unfinished and quite bulky when you compare it to the other three.

What a window may cost in your market is really dependent on the dealer, mark up, cost of doing business, and a whole host of other factors. Do the windows need grids?

You mentioned you are not supremely concerned with efficiency, but if you could get a true R-5 window (U-factor 0.20 or better) for a few bucks more, why not get the best window that you can?

mfer2k
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Re: Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

#3 Post by mfer2k »

Thanks for your reply, those are good points.

Something else I wanted to run by you, a local company offers Earthwise 143 Series and 800 Series windows for a very affordable price including installation (much less than the top brands I listed before). The window includes a u-factor of 0.27 and SHGC of 0.21. I could get these windows installed for less than half of the cost of the other top brands I discussed and they include a lifetime warranty. Do you have any opinions of these windows?

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Re: Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

#4 Post by Windows on Washington »

They are okay.

When you look at the finish quality on the units that are built near me, they are far less impressive.

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Re: Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

#5 Post by mfer2k »

So they're not overly impressive from a finish standpoint, but from a reliability and functionality stand point do you think these windows will hold up long-term?

The biggest thing I'm concerned about are the horror stories you hear about with bad vinyl windows where they expand and contract too much and the seal fails in 5-7 years.

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Re: Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

#6 Post by Windows on Washington »

I don't have enough of a background with them to comment intelligently on that part.

That being said, I would not want base my decision on buying a replacement window on whether or not the glass will fail. Glass failure should be a secondary concern once you are dealing with a quality unit.

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Re: Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

#7 Post by HomeSealed »

mfer2k wrote:... (efficiency is great but not my top priority)...

.
The funny thing about that, is that those two areas go hand in hand more times than not. Assuming that you are comparing windows of the same material (IE: vinyl vs vinyl), you are not going to find a great window with marginal performance, nor will you find a marginal window with great performance. Let's take the window that you are considering for instance. The u-factor of .27 looks pretty respectable on the surface right? Unfortunately, the SHGC indicates a glass package 366 (or something similar) which has the incorrect low e coatings for your climate and can actually produce performance that is detrimental.(Btw, window companies know this, but most people don't look any deeper than u-factor) If you were to use 272 (or a variance of it) which has a low-e coat on surface 2 (reflects heat back into your home in the cooler months), the u factor would likely be .29 or .30 which is mediocre. By comparison, the products that you mentioned as "recommended" will achieve as low as .25 u factor with that same glass (272 or equivalent), and a more appropriate shgc in the high .2's. Also very important in assessing energy efficiency and quality is the air infiltration rating, of which the top products are .05cfm and under (compared to an average vinyl window which is .15-.20 or so).

Regarding price, as WOW mentioned, location, dealer business model and size, etc will have the most profound effect on price. For example, there is a dealer in my area that sells the exact same window that you can get for "$189", but charges over $1000 for it. If you are figuring $500 for product + additional installation charges, your budget should be right on point to get one of the top performing products on the market, all of which should be available near you.

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Re: Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

#8 Post by mfer2k »

Firstly I just want to thank both of you for your replies, I appreciate your detailed insights.

To get more specific with my situation, I have a dealer that's willing to do all of the replacement windows in my house installed with the Earthwise 143 Series for $275 per window. This is a significant difference from an Okna window that would probably cost me around $700 installed per window.

Your reaction is probably going to be that the windows must be garbage to be installed for $275 per window, but is that necessarily true? I've heard you guys say numerous times that these windows are okay and that maybe the finishing isn't as good. I mean, would I really every recoup the $10K difference via energy savings and home value? Would I notice a very significant difference?

My neighbor and family friend referred me to this company. They replaced their windows 10 years ago and they still look pretty much new and they love them. So I don't know, what do you guys think based on this information?

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Re: Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

#9 Post by Windows on Washington »

Will you recoup the difference...absolutely not. Not in the next 10-20 years at least.

Now, back to the idea of a $275 installed window. How exactly is he or she doing that. We install several thousand windows a year and when I put windows in my own father's home, they cost me more than $275 per window by the time that all was said and done.

How do you expect a person that charges you $275 to service the window long term, should it require it, or even pick up the phone?

Quick way to make an enemy out of a friend is ask them to stand by a job a did when they did it at a loss to begin with.

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Re: Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

#10 Post by HomeSealed »

I won't put words into anyone's mouth, but when WOW says that you will not recoup the cost in 10-20 years, I assume that he is referring specifically to energy savings. On that I would agree. That said, I have no expectation that a window installed for $275 will last for 20 years, and therefore replacement and/or service costs need to be factored in as well. As WoW stated, even for someone that does a high volume of business (and therefore gets a great wholesale price on product), that number is lower than COST for a basic window installed with ZERO profit or overhead expense. Even the neighborhood drunk who works out of his pickup and only works for beer money is typically closer to $350-$400 installed for something off the shelf at a box store. There are times that people post crazy prices on here for good products where perhaps they just happen to be getting an amazing deal, but I can say with certainty that this just cannot be one of those times.

I will cite WOW's comments again on the part about things going sour. I have seen it happy many times and been on both ends before learning my lesson early on in business: There will be questions or issues that come up during the install, and as soon as they do, this guy's line of thinking will be "screw this, I'm doing this job for nothing and this guy has the nerve to complain?" Many will then walk off the job, possibly with a chunk of your money (never pay in full upfront).

On product, since you've cited some past posting on the Earthwise product line, let me explain. Earthwise is group of around a dozen or so independent manufacturers. They do source many of the raw materials from the same place, but there can be substantial differences in the quality of the finished product and the subsequent ratings. The higher end offerings like the Homeguard Innovations are solid, but some of the smaller manufacturers are pretty suspect. I can't claim that I'm familiar with the exact models that you've mentioned, but given that the wholesale cost of a good window approaches what you are paying "installed" and the ratings cited so far are mediocre, I'm not optimistic.

Ultimately the decision is up to you. If you are looking for an affirmation from any pro on this board (or from any reputable, established company) that a window installed for $275 by anyone including a close family is a good deal, I don't see that happening. The numbers make it impossible. The fact that you are putting forth the time and effort to research this purchase tells me that logic will likely prevail here, but if by chance you do choose that option, know that the odds are heavily stacked against you being satisfied at completion and beyond.

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Re: Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

#11 Post by Windows on Washington »

Thanks for the catch HomeSealed.

I was referring to energy.

Your other remarks are a fantastic and detailed explanation. Thank you for the time to write that post.

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Re: Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

#12 Post by masterext »

This post is highly suspect, a good window for 275, i dont believe it for a minute. The company would be losing money.
Family and friends recommended??? I dont believe that either.

mfer2k
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Re: Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

#13 Post by mfer2k »

Regarding your first point masterext, I obviously have no way of knowing whether this is a good window other than from what I saw in the house of my family friend (it looked fine and functioned like new when opening, closing, locking, and tilting in the sashes). And I have no idea how they're making money on this. All I know is that their current ad sale is $275 for white double hung of any size installed. I don't know if I should automatically assume the windows are garbage or maybe they just have a surplus of windows (although my family friend paid a similar price 10 years ago with this company).

And I'm not lying or posting an ad for this company or anything, I haven't even named the company or tried to support the product in any way, I'm just asking questions. I guess maybe you could claim that I work for Earthwise, but I don't....pinky swear.

They're coming to give me a consultation on Friday so maybe I'll have more info after that. I think I'm going to just straight up ask the guy why it's so cheap and maybe I can get him to tell me what they pay wholesale to see if I can make sense of this.

I also have consultations with Lowes and an Okna dealer on Saturday. In the end I think it's going to come down to Andersen 400, Okna, Simonton, or this extremely cheap company installing the Earthwise windows.

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Re: Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

#14 Post by mfer2k »

Thinking about it now, I doubt that they installed the same windows 10 years ago with the changes in vinyl window technology.

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Re: Which is the most reliable replacement window on a budget???

#15 Post by HomeSealed »

On one hand, they may have, although you are correct that at a minimum there have likely been some revisions since. On the other hand, there is and always will be a fair contingent of people that look for the cheapest option without regard to quality, so there are PLENTY of products to choose from in that pool.

On another note, I have a prospective client in a remarkably similar situation here in my area. He has already had a few of the windows installed and was highly dissatisfied, but is very much in the same boat as you in trying to justify the difference in cost. Very similar price point. Here is an excerpt from some of my correspondence with him that you may find informative as well (I have edited to remove names and self promotion):

Hi ----, thanks for the thoughtful response.
Regarding the cost of the windows, I don't doubt that the cost probably is around the number that you've quoted. I have an account at --- supply and have dealt with many window manufacturers, and those numbers make sense. Let's work back from there just for a second though. Let's use the median number provided by you of $4700(contractor cost) for the Simonton triple pane 13 windows and 1 door, and round his actual sales price to you up to $5600. That leaves a gross profit of $900 on this job. Not a king's ransom, but respectable for 2-3 days of work, correct? Let's take a closer look:

-Is this a one man operation, or does he have a helper or two. Let's say that he has one $12/hour helper for 21.5 hours (I calculate 1.5 hours per window, and 2hrs for the door, give or take). After payroll taxes, workman's comp, liability insurance, that $12 becomes $24 (actually more, but doubling the amount is a nice round number. In addition, a qualified helper is probably more like $15-$20 per hr). That totals $516. Subtract this, there is $384 left.
*If he is paying his help cash or by 1099, it is not a matter of IF, but WHEN he will get caught. A small operation will go under at that time...Our industry is highly targeted by the IRS, companies large and small due to rampant worker misclassification.
*If he is working alone, this two day job is probably 3+, so that reduces his income substantially regardless.

-Is the exterior trim being clad in bent aluminum? This is standard industry practice ... Cost of 2) rolls of aluminum coil stock, say 16 tubes of quality caulk, trim nails, insulation (fiberglass or foam), shims, fasteners, etc = $200. (Again, I'm rounding down). There is now $184 left.

-Was your home built prior to 1978? If so, this requires lead-safe procedures by law, which cost approximately 10% from training and certification, to materials and labor, to record keeping, insurance, and liability per the EPA. That would equate to over $500 in added costs, and this alone would put the project well into the red. If he is doing the job illegally, all parties involved could be subject to major fines....

-Does this company employ a commissioned salesperson? At the going rate of 10%, that again would automatically put this at a loss. Assuming again that this is a one man operation, let's assume a minimal $100 for time and fuel to present his services to you. Add more if a second appointment was necessary to take measurements.

-Add the time taken to order, confirm, schedule, and receive product. This would be several man hours for a reputable company, but let's just round to $100 again assuming that this is a one man operation.

-Advertising: How does he get work? Even the smallest companies advertise to some extent, even web listings and repeat/referrals cost money.

-Standard overhead not mentioned above: License, certifications, insurance (liability, workman's comp on himself, auto, heat, phone, internet, vehicle payment repairs and maintenance, tools and equipment, FUEL, etc ). I could go on, but you get the picture. This is thousands per month even for the smallest company working from home. Overhead cost can be anywhere from say 12%-15% on the frugal end, up to maybe 25%+ . Let's say he is VERY frugal, and use 10%. 10% on a $5k sale is $500 of overhead cost needed from this job.

-Do most jobs have some type of service needed somewhere down the road? Yes. Figure time and fuel just for one service trip that results in a non-issue (no additional expense): $50-$100. A reputable company would need to build more in for future service and overhead on those services.

At this point ----, even if you take out some of those items, this job is substantially in the red. Let's even say that this is the most basic (and insufficient) "caulk and walk" install with no exterior trim, the home was built in the 80's or later so no lead-safe procedures needed, and it is a true one man operation with no help. If you assign appropriate value to all of the expenses involved (even rounding down), there is no way that this is a sustainable company. It is either working on borrowed time and money, or doing things that are illegal or unethical to avoid necessary expenses. Let's again say hypothetically that somehow there is a few bucks left over after all of the above expenses. Let's now throw income tax on that which I did not even include above...
You also stated that even if this guy does go out of business, you would be covered under warranty by the manufacturer and/or ---, right? Guess how much warranty coverage you get if the windows are installed improperly (could be out of square, not use enough fasteners, or simply miss a small item in the manufacturer recommended procedures)? ZERO. Zero coverage if installed improperly. I'll also share some insider industry knowledge, and that is that each party tries to blame the other unless the failure is blatantly obvious. The installer will blame the manufacturer or distributor, manufacturer blames the distributor or installer, and distributor says "hey, I'm just the middle man, its either product or installation". When one of those three parties is no longer around, it becomes very easy for the other two to get on the same page in assigning said blame to the absent party. I see it all the time where we replace failing 5-10 yr old windows with denied warranty claims because of improper installation, and the installer is long out of business.

I apologize for such a long-winded response ----, but frankly any legitimate and sustainable business simply cannot compete with a company that operates at a loss or does not play by the rules...
The question at this point, is would you prefer to spend thousands of dollars and put into your home a product that is the cheapest that money can buy, or would it make more sense to invest in quality, reputation .... and peace of mind knowing that you are dealing with a company that will be around to service you down the road? I know that is starting to sound a little "salesy", but true nonetheless...


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