Window Replacement Options

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jasonumcp
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Window Replacement Options

#1 Post by jasonumcp »

I posted this on another forum before I found this replacement window specific forum. I know some people there also post here, but I figured I would repost here in an effort to get more opinions / information:


I purchased my house two years ago which was built in 1992. I have now figured out that my Andersen windows are displaying the collapsed glass issue common for that time period. Having done research, they are definitely out of warranty so I am starting to look at replacement.

As this was an unexpected project, I do not want to tackle all the windows in the house at once (~40). I am planning on starting with the windows on the front of the house which are the ones that are affected by the collapsed glass issue the most. I have 10 standard size double hungs, and over the front door I have another standard size double hung, two sidelight fixed panes (same height as double hung, about 10 inches wide) and a fixed half circle above the double hung. So 14 windows in all (11 double hung, 2 rectangular fixed pane, 1 half circle fixed pane). 11 of the 14 have colonial grids.

Even though they are out of warranty, Andersen will sell replacement sashes for 50% off because of the issue. So for $114 per sash ($228 per window), I can get 2 new low E sashes. This is parts and delivery only - I have to install myself. This also only works for the double hungs - I would have to figure out the fixed windows separately. So, I decided to start pricing replacements.

At my old house I used a company that installed triple pane Gorell windows. I have since sold that house and do not have to worry about Gorell going out of business. I did like the windows and the warranty (at the time). I first called this company again to get a quote. First, they decided not to stick with Soft-lite but rather to sell Vinylmax windows. In addition, they have become one of the 4 hour, wife must be there, hard pressure sale tactics. At the end of that time, the quote was $8350 for 14 triple pane windows (and "free" attic insulation). I have little stats and information about the window from the dealer. It took a week and I finally figured out they were quoting the Vinylmax Edison. When I pushed back about the cost, they offered to remove the "free" insulation and the price would be "around $6500". When I pushed back about Vinylmax, they offered to price Soft-lite. 5 Days later they came back and offered to "load up the Bainbridge with a few options and the triple pane...it will be same as old gorell and new Edison. It's 15% more but Softlight will help eat cost for a new/ previous customer". So I guess Soft-lite Bainbridge at "around $6500". At the moment I'm not thrilled with the pushy sales tactics, so I decided to get other quotes.

Another company came and was far more laid back and explained everything, listed everything out on paper with all the available options and upgrades. They quoted the Revere Berkshire Elite. Low E / Argon with the upgraded spacer and grids was $6400 installed. I understand this is more of a mid-grade window but should be decent improvement over my collapsed glass Andersens.

After reading glowing reviews of Okna, I decided to get a quote on those. For double pane Okna 500 series, the price was $10648. Triple pane Okna 500 series is $11488. The triple pane Okna 1800 series is $11768 (Okna has a special to get the 1800 triple pane for the price of the 1800 double pane). Based on some of the comments I've read around, these prices per window ($760 - $840) seem a bit higher than people seem to believe the Okna windows should run. I saw a reviewer on a big review site claim they had 21 Okna 500 series installed for $12000 ($571 per window). Do these installed prices seem about right? Are the prices higher now because this is the "busy" season for window replacement?

I know I kind of have apples and oranges here, and that many people here really like Okna, but are they really $4k - $5k better than the Berkshire Elites? For the double pane versions, the U factor is only 0.01 different. I know Okna has a fantastic AI rating and I am attempting to get that information about the Berkshire Elite but some of the design decisions made on the Okna (minus the refrigerator door seal) to decrease the AI I also saw on the Berkshire Elite.

I guess I'm trying to decide if almost doubling the price for the same job is worth it, or if I am better off saving the money and putting it towards some other home improvement (like attic insulation) or put it towards replacing more of the 40 windows in the house.

Thank you for any / all advice received.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Window Replacement Options

#2 Post by Windows on Washington »

Comparing prices from web review to the next is a bit difficult and often times misleading. Without knowing the specific requirements of the project and installation details, it is easy to make inaccurate comparisons.

Are the Andersen windows otherwise okay?

$230 per window for new Low-e sashes is cheap and if the frames are otherwise okay (i.e. not warped, no wood rot, functional, and otherwise looking sustainable), that is a tough deal to turn down.

masterext
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Re: Window Replacement Options

#3 Post by masterext »

Keep in mind, you would only be getting new sash's for those andersen's and i highly doubt you will have air tight windows at that point.
Something tells me you know thats probably not the way to go.

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Re: Window Replacement Options

#4 Post by Windows on Washington »

masterext wrote:Keep in mind, you would only be getting new sash's for those andersen's and i highly doubt you will have air tight windows at that point.
Something tells me you know thats probably not the way to go.
I should have mentioned that in the evaluation criteria as well.

Good catch Masterext.

jasonumcp
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Re: Window Replacement Options

#5 Post by jasonumcp »

The comment about comparing web prices make sense. I only brought it up because it was from the same company my quote was from, was from September, and nothing about my job (at least nothing was mentioned to me by the person who came out) was any different / more difficult than a standard replacement job.

As for the Andersens, most are ok. I have two above the garage that have some rot, so those probably do need to be replaced. In addition, I'm sure the balance mechanism aren't optimal because the previous owner screwed horizontal blinds into the top of the frame (a couple of the strings wouldn't retract - his "fix" was to back out the screws a bit for the blinds).

The Andersens are definitely cheapest, and probably not bad for the rooms. But for the two dormers above the garage that have some wood rot, and the 3 fixed panes with the double-hung around the front door, just replacing the sashes wouldn't really work. Hence the reason I started getting replacement quotes.

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Re: Window Replacement Options

#6 Post by HomeSealed »

I'll repost my reply from the other site :wink:

1) My initial recommendation would be to either go for the replacement sashes at the lowest investment, or go for a quality product if you elect to replace.
2) The Okna 500 is the best performer by a fair margin. In deluxe trim (which it is most commonly sold), it gets a .25 u factor which is significantly better than the other choices. Then there is the aforementioed air leakage ratings.

3) The Bainbridge is a solid offering, and with triple pane glass for a significantly lower price, it certainly makes that choice hard to beat.

4) Personally I would not consider the Bershire. Taking some design cues from a Mercedes and putting them on a Kia does not make it a Mercedes. The product is undoubtedly improved over previous verisons, but still not in the same conversation as the other two options. The fact that this product cannot accommodate triple pane glass speaks volumes in my opinion. I have been given a demonstration on the product, and personally decided that it is not a product that I would like to offer my clients.

5) In terms of energy efficiency alone, the biggest ROI will undoubtedly be in the attic air sealing and insulation if that area of your home has not been addressed. From that perspective, it would be best to invest your funds in those areas first. That said, obviously you have a need given the defective windows, so you will want to balance energy efficiency and "bang for the buck" in that regard, along with quality and longevity. The replacement sashes would probably win on "bang for the buck" alone, however given that the rest of the window (frames, hardware, etc) are 23 years old, maybe that is or is not a wise investment.

6) On pricing, all of the quoted prices are within a normal range, and every price will depend far more on the circumstances of each given dealer than the wholesale price of the product itself. The Berkshire/Excalibur/Mezzo can be found from $189 installed all the way up to $1200+. The Okna generally starts in the $500's on the very low end to $1000+. Same for Softlite's lines. Whether or not that exact price of $760+ is a great deal or perhaps a little high will depend on a whole slew of factors from installation circumstances to product options, regional location, etc.

Ultimately, my recommendation is that while you do not want to be gouged on price, you do want to invest in the best product that you can afford. A couple thousand dollars is a couple thousand dollars no doubt, but when we are talking about an investment of this magnitude and duration (30+ years if chosen well), that can put things into a different perspective... My guess is that among pros there would probably be a pretty even split, with the Okna being a bit more stout, and the Bainbridge offering a pretty high value proposition with that triple pane and price. Between those two, I'd do some thorough vetting of each contractor which may provide some additional clarity. Pick the product and contractor that you prefer, then see if anything further can be done to come to a happy place on your budget (from both sides).

jasonumcp
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Re: Window Replacement Options

#7 Post by jasonumcp »

HomeSealed wrote:I'll repost my reply from the other site :wink:

1) My initial recommendation would be to either go for the replacement sashes at the lowest investment, or go for a quality product if you elect to replace.
2) The Okna 500 is the best performer by a fair margin. In deluxe trim (which it is most commonly sold), it gets a .25 u factor which is significantly better than the other choices. Then there is the aforementioed air leakage ratings.

3) The Bainbridge is a solid offering, and with triple pane glass for a significantly lower price, it certainly makes that choice hard to beat.

4) Personally I would not consider the Bershire. Taking some design cues from a Mercedes and putting them on a Kia does not make it a Mercedes. The product is undoubtedly improved over previous verisons, but still not in the same conversation as the other two options. The fact that this product cannot accommodate triple pane glass speaks volumes in my opinion. I have been given a demonstration on the product, and personally decided that it is not a product that I would like to offer my clients.

5) In terms of energy efficiency alone, the biggest ROI will undoubtedly be in the attic air sealing and insulation if that area of your home has not been addressed. From that perspective, it would be best to invest your funds in those areas first. That said, obviously you have a need given the defective windows, so you will want to balance energy efficiency and "bang for the buck" in that regard, along with quality and longevity. The replacement sashes would probably win on "bang for the buck" alone, however given that the rest of the window (frames, hardware, etc) are 23 years old, maybe that is or is not a wise investment.

6) On pricing, all of the quoted prices are within a normal range, and every price will depend far more on the circumstances of each given dealer than the wholesale price of the product itself. The Berkshire/Excalibur/Mezzo can be found from $189 installed all the way up to $1200+. The Okna generally starts in the $500's on the very low end to $1000+. Same for Softlite's lines. Whether or not that exact price of $760+ is a great deal or perhaps a little high will depend on a whole slew of factors from installation circumstances to product options, regional location, etc.

Ultimately, my recommendation is that while you do not want to be gouged on price, you do want to invest in the best product that you can afford. A couple thousand dollars is a couple thousand dollars no doubt, but when we are talking about an investment of this magnitude and duration (30+ years if chosen well), that can put things into a different perspective... My guess is that among pros there would probably be a pretty even split, with the Okna being a bit more stout, and the Bainbridge offering a pretty high value proposition with that triple pane and price. Between those two, I'd do some thorough vetting of each contractor which may provide some additional clarity. Pick the product and contractor that you prefer, then see if anything further can be done to come to a happy place on your budget (from both sides).
Thanks. As an FYI, I wasn't discounting your post on the other site, I just found this site today and thought I might get more window-centric traffic here :)

Based on the feedback I have received, I found another supposedly reputable contractor that sells Soft-lite, Sunrise, and Vytex (their preferred but supposedly sell a lot of all three manufacturers) coming on Friday morning to give me another quote. We'll see where that goes.

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Re: Window Replacement Options

#8 Post by Windows on Washington »

Good luck.

Keep us posted.

jasonumcp
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Re: Window Replacement Options

#9 Post by jasonumcp »

So the other company came out yesterday morning and I just got the quote this morning. He ended up quoting Vytex Fortis. He said they do Sunrise, but they have a great relationship with Vytex (factory is probably 10-15 miles from here), the Vytex is just as good as Sunrise, and we could get a better price/deal on the Vytex.

His quote on the Vytex (lifetime window warranty from Vytex, 10 year labor from the contractor) was as follows:

Energy savor plus R-4 rating (double pane)=$6,997.00
Energy savor max, Triple pane r-5 rating =$7,972.00
Energy savor Ultimate Triple pane , Krypton r-6 rating,=$8,322.00

They also offer an Energy Savor max triple silver low-e coating:
Cost for the Energy savor max 3S r-5 rating is $8,372.00.
Energy savor Ultimate 3S, r-6 rating is $8,522.00

The triple-pane R5 has a U factor of 0.2, SHGC of 0.25, VT 0.42. I believe the AI is 0.05. The triple-pane R6 has a U factor of 0.16, SHGC 0.25, VT of 0.42. AI is the same at 0.05. I don't have CR ratings. These are the values for the base windows - not the ones with the triple silver low-e. I don't have any info on how that coating affects the ratings.

In addition, I found out there were some discounts from the Okna dealer that I didn't account for. The updated price of the 1800 series triple pane is $10696 ($764 per window). I double checked - the contractor's labor warranty is lifetime.

For reference, the quote for the Okna 1800 lists a U factor of 0.19, SHGC of 0.23, AI of 0.01, CR of 75, and VT of 0.37.

The Okna contractor said they would use low expansion foam during the install. The Vytex installer said they would use it if needed (and probably because I brought it up).

As of now, I think I have narrowed it down to these two options. What would you guys recommend? Is the Vytex triple silver low-e coating any good / worth it? Is the R5 Okna 1800 ~$2000 better than a triple pane R5 and/or R6 Fortis?

Thanks.

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Re: Window Replacement Options

#10 Post by randy »

Not being familiar with the Vytex window, I'll limit my comment to this statement:
The Okna contractor said they would use low expansion foam during the install. The Vytex installer said they would use it if needed (and probably because I brought it up).
For me, this isn't a minor matter. Minimal expanding foam around the new windows is the best way to ensure and airtight fit; caulk alone, or even loose fill fiberglass can't even come close. You're most likely correct about the reason why the Vytex installer said they would use it "if needed". I wouldn't recommend having installers who aren't experienced with using spray foam start with your house.

Installation is every bit as critical as the window you choose, and perhaps more important. I'd factor that into the difference in price as well.

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Re: Window Replacement Options

#11 Post by Windows on Washington »

Well said randy.

What and how a company installs a given product speaks volumes about other choices.

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Re: Window Replacement Options

#12 Post by fridge2020 »

Local dealers = good
Local manufacturers= ...eehhhhh, not my fav...
You don't need a household name, but I'd like to see a manufacturer with a little bigger footprint and more history than the Vytex. Just my 2 cents. I'd prefer the Sunrise or Okna.

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