Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

For all those Replacement Window decisions - just read, review or post a question. You will be helped!
Message
Author
RamonetB
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:38 pm

Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#1 Post by RamonetB »

Hello everyone!

I'm about to ask what I'm sure is a very difficult and murky question: What are the best brands / models of mid-range windows to go with? I'm sure this question must be terribly difficult to answer. Let me provide some more detail as concisely as I can.

I'm a new homeowner and I'm looking to replace 8 Double Hung windows, a 4 pane window (possible bay in future upgrade), and a sliding glass door in my home. The current windows are Anderson windows from 1986, double pane, wood, and while they've held up relatively alright, they lag far behind modern window advancements. So, I'm looking to replace them and help reduce heating costs and the ever present draftiness of the home. I'm anticipating a cost of somewhere around $13,000 (obviously more if a Bay Window is put in).

I live in the North East and winters are routinely in the 20's or less (very less, as the case may be right now). The house is vinyl siding and uses electric baseboard for heat (yes, I know! It's quite expensive. Fear not, there are plans to replace it.).

So, I'd like to know what brands I should be looking at. I'm looking for a mid range window and have begun the process of getting quotes from some "well known names" such as Pella, Marvin, and Andersen.

Unfortunately, as I've read more and more online, it seems that these companies may have more name recognition than quality. Having never owned a home and being very new to the windows game, I'm not sure what to believe. As is always the case on the internet, reviews tend to be more negative than positive as people tend to gripe more than praise.

As I've done some reviewing on this forum, I've seen Sunrise, Soft-Lite, and Onka come up frequently. I've never actually heard of these companies before. If someone could point me in the right direction or simply reply here to help educate me and guide me, that would be fantastic!

I understand windows are an investment that can add value to a home. I'd like the money I'm spending to improve the home, last, and get the best value per dollar.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

-Kirk

bgbrock
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#2 Post by bgbrock »

What type (wood, fiberglass, vinyl) of windows have you received quotes from Pella, Marvin and Andersen folks?

Just need to be clear so you are comparing apples to apples in terms of price.

Yes, you have named a few of the better mfr's of the vinyl world - Okna, Sunrise and Soft-Lite.

masterext
Posts: 826
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
Location: Window Pro-Serves All of Northern New Jersey. Bergen, Morris, Union, Essex, Passaic, Sussex Counties

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#3 Post by masterext »

The higher end names such as okna, soft lite, and sunrise will beat out andersen, pella, and marvin on every metric such as structural integrity, Ufactor, and air infiltration.
They each offer a various lines to meet most realistic budgets. Depending on what state you reside in, they should be available.

When most home owners think of vinyl windows, they automatically think of the garbage sold at home depot and other building supply stores. The aforementioned brands are nothing like that.
A solid window will add value in a few ways. 1) energy efficiency/ air tightness, 2) comfort 3) looks ,and 4) longevity.
A cheap window will offer none of the above.

RamonetB
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:38 pm

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#4 Post by RamonetB »

Thanks for the replies.

So far, the only one who has given me quotes has been Pella. We were looking at their Aluminum clad wood offerings, the Designer series and the Proline 450 series. Although, the Pella representative also sent us quotes for the windows in both Vinyl and Fiberglass.

My wife and I have been leaning towards wood as we like the look of it. We've also heard a lot of not nice things about vinyl warping and such over time. Most of these complaints could easily be attributed to cheap vinyl windows, though, I'm sure. (Although, neither of us were impressed with Pella's offerings on the vinyl end. This isn't to say the quality is bad -- it may be, I don't know -- but we certainly didn't like the look and feel of them or their operation).

Out of curiosity, if we were to stick with wood, which companies do well with that material? It seems Sunrise, Onka, and Soft-Lite are primarily vinyl window manufacturers (correct me if I'm wrong on this). We do have a couple of dealers in the area and I am planning on having them out too, now.

masterext
Posts: 826
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
Location: Window Pro-Serves All of Northern New Jersey. Bergen, Morris, Union, Essex, Passaic, Sussex Counties

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#5 Post by masterext »

Lower grade vinyl will warp but NOT the higher grade brands. The vinyl itself is much stronger and resistant to warping.
Pella pro line is not a well made window, the designer series is nicer than the pro line but still lacks in performance. The air infiltration rate on all Pella windows are quite high.
Bear in mind, wood windows do need to be maintained ( on the inside) or else they can absorb moisture and cause a lot of issues.
You can also look at a composite window such as Starmark.
Higher end vinyl and composites will be much more energy efficient and you will have no maintenance.

User avatar
Delaware Mike
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:32 pm
Location: Delaware, New Jersey, Philadephia Area

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#6 Post by Delaware Mike »

Pella wood/clad wouldn't even be in my top 3 choices regarding wood offerings. But hey, they're viewed to be the best. At least according to themselves…………..

RamonetB
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:38 pm

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#7 Post by RamonetB »

Delaware Mike wrote:Pella wood/clad wouldn't even be in my top 3 choices regarding wood offerings. But hey, they're viewed to be the best. At least according to themselves…………..
What would be your top 3 choices?

masterext wrote:Lower grade vinyl will warp but NOT the higher grade brands. The vinyl itself is much stronger and resistant to warping.Higher end vinyl and composites will be much more energy efficient and you will have no maintenance.
I thought Vinyl had inherent issues with expansion and contraction with temperature changes. I guess this is something that higher end window manufacturers have corrected / overcome?

Or am I being grossly misinformed on Vinyl windows?

masterext
Posts: 826
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
Location: Window Pro-Serves All of Northern New Jersey. Bergen, Morris, Union, Essex, Passaic, Sussex Counties

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#8 Post by masterext »

You are being misinformed, sounds like something renewal would say. Higher grade vinyl will expand less than a home depot type vinyl. The fact that the 3 vinyl brands i listed have structural numbers that are almost twice of a wood window speaks volumes.

bgbrock
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#9 Post by bgbrock »

Yes vinyl does expand and contract (slight) with temperature changes, no more than a wood window does (slight) with changes in humidity

Pella would be my very last choice in windows in the industry. I have the Original Pella ( which has now been replaced by the extremely low end Proline) window in my home and would only consider replacing them with a high end vinyl window (preferably Okna).

As the very knowledgeable pros here have already mentioned, you have been grossly misinformed about QUALITY vinyl windows.

toddinmn
Posts: 632
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:11 am

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#10 Post by toddinmn »

Why would the vinyl from home depot vinyl windows expand at different rates? Do you have data on this?
Today's wood windows, especially double hung have a fair amount of vinyl in there parts.

User avatar
Windows on Washington
Posts: 4843
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
Contact:

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#11 Post by Windows on Washington »

Todd,

I can't speak to bgbrock's thought process, but we do see higher realized expansion and contraction out of materials that are both uninsulated and have thinner mil thicknesses.

You are 100% correct that the expansion rate of vinyl is "X" and that does that change between the window manufacturers.

What I am speaking to is the thickness of vinyl "X" or being insulated can dramatically reduce the temperature swings and therefore movement of that lineal.

This is most easily demonstrated by customers that go from a hollow back vinyl siding (builder's grade and thin) vs. a foam backed panel that is more robust. Even in the same color ranges, movement (expansion) and noise out of the new panel is almost non-existent as compared to their older siding.

Like I said, can't speak to what bgrock was saying but this is what I have observed.

toddinmn
Posts: 632
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:11 am

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#12 Post by toddinmn »

The expansion rate of PVC is the same regardless of wall thickness. I would imagine foam backed siding would help the rigidity of siding but have zero effect on it's expansion rate.

User avatar
Windows on Washington
Posts: 4843
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
Contact:

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#13 Post by Windows on Washington »

toddinmn wrote:The expansion rate of PVC is the same regardless of wall thickness. I would imagine foam backed siding would help the rigidity of siding but have zero effect on it's expansion rate.
Correct. This is what I was referencing when I said:
Windows on Washington wrote:You are 100% correct that the expansion rate of vinyl is "X" and that does that change between the window manufacturers.
The expansion rate of vinyl is constant. What is not constant is temperature. The thinner or more uninsulated the lineal is, the greater and more dramatic the temperature swings.

More temperature movement, more lineal movement. Thinner lineal (and/or uninsulated) the energy can move more quickly through it and be lost to inside/outside. This is why we love seeing blue frames on the IR camera in the winter months.

The foam behind siding definitely adds to the torsional rigidity (and stiffness when bonded) but I think it is the insulation that adds to the thermal resistance that does more to mitigate the expansion and contraction rates. Several of the foam backed panels are drop in (i.e. don't have the foam bonded to the panel) and would, as a result, not limit panel growth in any manner.

Even the feedback we get from clients on those panels is quiet positive when it comes to reductions in "musical claddings" complaints.

Either way, I like foam filled extrusions and siding for all of the reasons that you noted and listed above.

More foam in windows...more better... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Image

masterext
Posts: 826
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
Location: Window Pro-Serves All of Northern New Jersey. Bergen, Morris, Union, Essex, Passaic, Sussex Counties

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#14 Post by masterext »

Thats not entirely correct Todd. I have talked to a few different engineers at various vinyl extruders and they all clearly state that a higher grade of vinyl will not expand as much as a lower grade vinyl. There are various compounds that can be added to vinyl in its liquid form in order to make it more resistant to heat, cold, impact, and discoloration. The amount and quality of these compounds will determine its strength. Most vinyl products are made of a generic form obviously due to cost.

bgbrock
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: Seeking advise for mid range windows selection in North East

#15 Post by bgbrock »

masterext wrote:You are being misinformed, sounds like something renewal would say. Higher grade vinyl will expand less than a home depot type vinyl. The fact that the 3 vinyl brands i listed have structural numbers that are almost twice of a wood window speaks volumes.
toddinmn wrote:Why would the vinyl from home depot vinyl windows expand at different rates? Do you have data on this?
Today's wood windows, especially double hung have a fair amount of vinyl in there parts.

I believe that Todd's question was in regards to the statement that of masterxt and not of mine.

Post Reply