Full Frame Replacement or Insert Installation?

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Lovely Rita
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Full Frame Replacement or Insert Installation?

#1 Post by Lovely Rita »

I am researching replacing all of the windows in my detached condo in SE Michigan. Currently the condo has the original vinyl windows making them 17 years old; marked as Carefree brand. I plan to stay in this home a very long time, and want to do this right.

I think I would like to have Sunrise windows, and have received estimates from two companies. Company A has the Sunrise Vanguard brand. Company B has the standard Sunrise window. (not the lowest end Essentials.)

Would I be just as happy with the quality of standard Sunrise as the Vanguard?

The bigger issue is that they have 2 different installation approaches: Company B automatically does full frame replacement. When I asked Company A about their installation, here is the response:
When you are removing vinyl new construction windows, there is no need for a full frame replacement,
which involves new jamb extensions and interior casing. Full frame replacement's are needed when
removing newer wood windows that have a deeper jamb
What is your reaction and how would you advise me? Thanks so much!

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Delaware Mike
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Re: Full Frame Replacement or Insert Installation?

#2 Post by Delaware Mike »

If I understand company A correctly, they are saying that when they remove a new construction flanged and taped vinyl window, they replace it with a non-flanged window (replacement/insert)? Not exactly Mike Holmes approved.

It's more work that's for sure in regards to messing with the siding and cut back of the existing jambs and stool. Expect to pay more for the full frame type installation.

I prefer the Vanguard to the regular unless the project is mostly casements as opposed to double hungs.

toddinmn
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Re: Full Frame Replacement or Insert Installation?

#3 Post by toddinmn »

I'd go company B, the superior install trumps slightly less window or go company c and get another bid.Full frames are the answer you are looking for.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Full Frame Replacement or Insert Installation?

#4 Post by Windows on Washington »

A vinyl window removal is always a "full tear" application. It may not be new construction (i.e. nailing flange) but it always incorporates a full removal of the frame.

masterext
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Re: Full Frame Replacement or Insert Installation?

#5 Post by masterext »

I think company A may have used the wrong wording. This is common due to most salesman not being very well versed in installation techniques. That surely doesnt mean the company installers will not do a good job. He is probably referring to a new construction installation which requires removal of all interior, exterior trim, plus any extension jamb. This sort of install is warranted when rotted wood or water damage is ubiquitous or if the original window trim was poorly installed.
A properly installed/ insulated replacement window installation is fine as far as I am concerned if your current situation doesnt apply to my aforementioned example.
I also prefer the Vanguard due to the fact that it comes with sash reinforcement. As Mike said, if they are casement windows, regular Sunrise is fine. If they are Double hungs, go with Vanguard.

toddinmn
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Re: Full Frame Replacement or Insert Installation?

#6 Post by toddinmn »

If I understand everything correctly, Company A and Master Ext are saying the same thing. This would be cutting off the flange of existing window from out side, push new window up to existing trim/jamb extension, foam in window, reinstall exterior trim or new, cap window and done? I don't think company A misspoke and if he did I would not want to deal with him.
A full frame install with a nail fin can sometime be difficult if there is no exterior trim and the siding is butted to window. The type of siding will also dictate how difficult the install is.
I would wait and see where prices come in at and would consider getting at least 1 more bid. I would predict company B having a lower price than A.
Keep us informed as this is my only source of entertainment.

Lovely Rita
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Re: Full Frame Replacement or Insert Installation?

#7 Post by Lovely Rita »

Thanks to everyone for taking an interest and helping. toddinmn, glad to hear that this is entertaining; that gives me strength to persevere!

When I began the process of getting estimates, I was not pursuing Sunrise windows; hadn't ever heard of them. I researched window installation companies, wanting local family places with some longevity and good ratings on Angie's list. I asked 2 places for estimates. During company A's presentation, the name Sunrise was never mentioned; their windows and the branding in the glossy brochure were for "Ultra Gold" windows. Company B came out with a corporate Sunrise brochure. Yes, Company A had the higher price. I was studying the brochures later, and noticed that a couple of the stock photos were identical. I started researching Sunrise windows, which was the path that took me here, and I started to figure out that "Ultra Gold" was some version of a Sunrise window. I also called Sunrise to clarify what categories of windows these 2 companies were using, and to ask why Company B did not appear as an authorized installer on their website. They referred me to the area rep, who told me that Company B did not do enough volume to earn placement on their website. He confirmed that Company B handled the Sunrise category, and Company A had the Sunrise Vanguard, badged with their own company name brand. This person assured me I would be happy with either company, and encouraged me to go with whoever I was most comfortable with. Ironically, it was also this rep who suggested I ask if they would be doing a full frame install, producing the information from them I included in my first post.

At this point, there is only one other company in my area that Sunrise admits on their website carries their window. I have talked to them, and Sunrise only lets them have the standard brand, but if I really wanted Vanguard, they "could try to get them."

LOL! Such a mystery. At this point, I don't even know what questions to ask about installation, or what direction to go, so I would really welcome your insights.
Last edited by Lovely Rita on Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bgbrock
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Re: Full Frame Replacement or Insert Installation?

#8 Post by bgbrock »

Rita - as a non pro of windows - I can truly relate to your agony of the Sunrise " fiasco" of their convoluted marketing structure. I was there at one time myself.

You are considering ONE of the better windows produced by Sunrise - the Vanguard. The unfortunate part is, the contractor that sells the Sunrise (base model - not the Essentials which shouldn't even be produced by Sunrise, due to quality) more than likely will not be able to provide you with the Vanguard, and you will need to find a Vanguard specific dealer within your area.

Heck, I have a Sunrise dealer right down the street from me and if I wanted the Vanguard I would have to go to his competitor.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Full Frame Replacement or Insert Installation?

#9 Post by HomeSealed »

As WoW stated above, you are getting a "full frame" install either way, as there is no way to leave the existing frame in. Furthermore, leaving the interior trim in place does not necessarily preclude a nail fin installation.

You need to discuss the exterior flashing details that each company is proposing. From that point, look at the pros and cons and see which you prefer. An "express" installation as I believe Pella calls it is where the nail fin is cut off and a new window is installed with no fin. A drip cap should be retrofitted in this application and other measures to ensure water tightness. This is not my favorite type of installation, but it is valid and accepted in the industry none the less.

Along with the other Pros, I'd prefer to see you get an installation including nail fin. Just how invasive that needs to be will be dictated by the siding/trim situation. This will provide several additional layers of protection, and I'd also agree that this aspect outweighs the upgraded window.

If the sales consultant can't answer these questions for you in depth, ask to speak with someone that can, like a manager or something along those lines. This is a very important aspect of your purchase

SAL321
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Re: Full Frame Replacement or Insert Installation?

#10 Post by SAL321 »

Rita,

I've recently gone through a similar experience and yes I'm in the SE Michigan area. We had this very debate. If you would like to PM me I can offer up some valuable advice on the decision we made. There are options in the area that can get you a similar window. The folks I was working with were absolutely wonderful to work with. I'd recommend them in a second.

I think one of the advantages of forums such as this is learning from others and sharing that information. I know I relied heavily on the research I did.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Full Frame Replacement or Insert Installation?

#11 Post by HomeSealed »

SAL, thanks for your contribution. Unfortunately this site does not have a PM function. Please feel free to elaborate on your experience via the open forum. :D

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