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 Post subject: Have estimates, looking for advice
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:04 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:55 pm
Posts: 1
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I'm in the Kansas City area, looking to replace 24 wood windows. I got the
below quotes from 4 dealers and was wondering if these prices are low, medium or high?
FenEx or Windows4U what'ca think?

The Schuco's and Great Lakes are beyond my budget. I might be able to
afford the Simonton 9800. Are there a lot of differences between the Simonton 5500 and 9800?

2 story house in front, 3 story in back. Exterior is wood, no brick or stuco.
All outside window trim will be wrapped, old windows taken away.

Double hung w/grids - (2)23x65, (1)35x65, (3)35x53,
Double hung no grids - (1)23x37, (1)27x53, (3)33x76, (4)35x53,
(1)35x65, (3)35x73, (2)37x74
Picture w/grids - (2)35x53
Vertical slider no grids - (1)49x41

Schuco, Corona 4000 - $19,600 (3 pane, krypton, full screens)
Simonton, Impressions 9800 - $13,076 (2 pane, argon, full screens)
Simonton, Impressions 9800 - $14,636 (3 pane, krypton, full screens)
Simonton, Reflections 5500 - $10,752 (2 pane, argon, super spacer)
Simonton, Reflections 5500 - $11,380 (2 pane, krypton, super spacer)
Simonton, Reflections 5500 - $12,030 (3 pane, argon, super spacer)
Great Lakes, Uniframe - $23,000


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:18 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Indiana
Offline
I personally can't see what would make shucco or great lakes actually worth that much more money. If either of the simonton lines are installed correctly, I'm sure they will serve their purpose and you will be totally satisfied with them. I've installed thousands of simonton windows for Sears, I can honestly say, I've not had a problem with the quality of the windows. Everyone seems to be pleased with the energy savings and operation. I would look hard at the warrany, service after the sale, longevity and stability of the company you're buying from and the installer's reputation. I've found that years of experience doesn't always reflect quality of workmanship. 20 years of doing it wrong, doesn't make you any better at it. Try to see a couple of their past jobs in your area. Talk to the customers. E-mail me if your interested in what Sears has to offer. good luck!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:13 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
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If you want to compare the features of a Shuco to anything Sears sells, I think you'll see the difference


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:34 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Indiana
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Compare what features? They both have glass and locks. Both keep out the cold and the heat. They both probably look better than those being removed. Air locks, handles? Sears has an interloking meeting rail that seems to be very efficient, Shucco? vinyl construction? I'm not saying shucco is a bad window, I just don't see where the money's going. Do you think they increase the value of the home more than the other brands? Educate us hipkat.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:05 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
Offline
OK, Shuco: (And I know some other windows have some of these features, too)

100% Rigid Vinyl, extruded, with parafin and coated with Titanium TE2, not plastic injection molding.
Heat welded corners.
Pass the Manhattan and Chicago forced entry tests every year since 1987.
Foiled Hospital sill w/ gutter system.
Interlocking sashes.
1-1/2" Rain cap over top and sides of window.
Triple pane, 1/8" optical float glass, laser scanned, floated on a bed of tin with the TPS spacer system (Organic rubber, bonded to the glass, attached as the glass dries, not coating some BS Aluminum spacer that gets glued to the glass) rated by consumer reports to have a seal failure rate of 1:50,000, which, BTW, ONLY Shuco has, also used by Mercedes Benz, and oh yeah, airplane windshields.
Glass dried vertically, not horizontially, resisting dust from settling on glass.
Titanium coated glass loE.
1" glass pack with 95%+ fill capacity of Krypton.
Assembled in a Krypton filled chamber, not injected like the other guys do (With a capacity of not much more than 80%)
R-10!!!! Does Sears or anyone else offer a window rated at R-10!!??
U Value .20, lowest in the industry. The next closest is the Bristol whi is .33.
The "felt" weather stripping that other windows use, on a Shuco is Lambs wool, sewed into mylar, coated with teflon.
1-1/2" Thermal U channel: Deepest in the industry.
Power lock, patened by Shuco, triple mechanism, automatically locks when the window is closed.
Nighttime ventilation clips made of Noreen.
Extruded full length lift rails.
The industry's only (to my knowledge) in-line slider.
BTW, we INVENTED the tilt-in sash.
I demo cleaning butter off the window with a DRY paper towel, because of the perfection of the optical float glass.
Teflon coated fiberglass screen.
Screen is extruded aluminum
Let's see, oh yeah, backed by good housekeeping. No one else on here can claim that.
Lifetime warranties on ALL parts.
What else.....OH!! I know. Shuco is the LARGEST manufacturer of windows in the world: 3 BILLION Dollars a year in sales. 54 years in business.
NO Sub-contractors, when purchased through FJB Associates, who btw, happen to own the plant where all insul-sash windows in the US are made. ALL aspects of the window from research to service calls, fabrication to installation by our employees.
Set a radiometer on your window, hod a lighter underneath it, and see if the radiometer turns. It doesn't on mine. Fire is what, 450 degrees???
As far as value, 66% of all Realtors say that home that is TRULY low maintenanace, with good energy saving products, supporting lower utility cost sells for as much as 15% more than similar homes in the same heighborhood and sell faster.
We use 9% in our demo.....

BTW, we manufacture and sell windows, not windows and ladies garments and toys and stereos and lawn mowers, etc....
You also can't come here to get your hair cut or your pictures taken...


Consider yourself educated....


Last edited by HipKat on Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:22 pm 

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:57 am
Posts: 135
Location: ne ohio
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hipkat,
wow that response is an instant classic. you killed me with the pictures thing. i was waiting for the dental chair line to drop. great post


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:35 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
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Well, Sears sells the standard double pane, hollow sash aluminum spacer replacement window that 155 other companies sell.

Thx!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:19 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
Offline
No response on this thread, huh Searspro??

Question to the masses: Knowing what you know now, would you put Sears windows in your home???
Or better yet, a question I use when talking about other types of windows: Would you say Sears windows are a permanent solution or a temporary fix???

Thje dfifference between us and them is that we don't have to stop on the way to the office for the little old lady who says "Excuse me sonny, do you carry Depends??" Let me ask you something. Does your uniform include the red AND the blue Sears t-shirt??? And did you have to buy your own name tag??


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:38 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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All Right guys lets not attack people personally! Stick to the points and not the people. I've respected answers from Searspro and HipKat. The attacks just get us away from what we are really here for. Great answer though Hipkat. Very informational and to the point. It's a well known fact I have a huge hatred for Sears, but that's a personal thing. I have enjoyed great chats with Searspro and respect his loyalty to his job. There are good installers that work for companies that lack some respect. Heck I install for Lowes here but we have no problems.
I understand what point Searspro is trying to make. Most vinyl windows today are really close to the same in many ways. Schuco does stand out in many areas. Just on appearance alone the Schuco window is by far more appealing. Their slider is hands down the best!! Nothing compares to it!! This would only be understood by physically seeing them in person and going over all the differences. Ounce you do that then you will see what everyone is cheering about.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:44 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
Offline
You're absolutely correct and I apologize.
What alot of people don't know is that there are only a handful of manufacturers in the USA. 156 (approx) companies SELL windows, but they're really selling the same basic window.

I appreciate your endorsement of our windows!!!

Other than the money, which is the same with any product, the manufacturing is the main point.


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 Post subject: reply
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:33 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Illinois
Offline
Ok.. I've been quiet long enough. It is very well known that when I introduced Schuco to these sites it was, and still is based upon my professional respect for the products. However, even a few untruths about the best products can raise doubts and undue many well supported facts.

Hipcat... I respect your enthusiasm, but you shared numerous untruths above. As you have stated that you are relatively new to the industry, I would imagine you have been given incorrect information by your supervisors. Please properly research and correct for the sake of all involved. Thanks.

FenEx


Last edited by FenEx on Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:03 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
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I'm curious as to what you think is untrue.
As a rep who ONLY sells Shuco windows, I'd like to know what I'm misinformed about.


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 Post subject: reply
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:21 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Illinois
Offline
Hipcat: "As a rep who ONLY sells Shuco windows, I'd like to know what I'm misinformed about."

As a seasoned pro in the industry, I'd be more than happy to enlighten you and your sources. I'll quote just a few of your statements with an "S" and my replies with an "R". Before beginning, you really should know that the product that you claim to know so much about is spelled SCHUCO... not Shuco.



S: "100% Rigid Vinyl, extruded, with parafin and coated with Titanium TE2, not plastic injection molding. "

R: All of the extrusions used by Schuco are provided by Royal and are not coated with anything. Titanium Dioxide is an integral part of the vinyl which protects against UV.


S: "Pass the Manhattan and Chicago forced entry tests every year since 1987."

R: Schuco has only been is the states since 1997.


S: "Triple pane, 1/8" optical float glass, laser scanned, floated on a bed of tin with the TPS spacer system (Organic rubber, bonded to the glass, attached as the glass dries, not coating some BS Aluminum spacer that gets glued to the glass) rated by consumer reports to have a seal failure rate of 1:50,000, which, BTW, ONLY Shuco has, also used by Mercedes Benz, and oh yeah, airplane windshields. "

R: The TPS system is applied to edge-deleted glass the is fully cooled and dried. A Butyl hot-melt butyl spacer is used and backed by a two-part polysulfide secondary seal. It has NEVER been rated by Consumer Reports and probably never will be as they only include products available at retail. This being the case, their reports are very limited in the first place.


S: "-10!!!! Does Sears or anyone else offer a window rated at R-10!!??
U Value .20, lowest in the industry. The next closest is the Bristol whi is .33. The "felt" weather stripping that other windows use, on a Shuco is Lambs wool, sewed into mylar, coated with teflon. "

R: No One sells an R-10 window. You are quoting a center of glass R-value (size of a quarter)... not a window value. An entire window with a U-.20 has an R-Value of 5. Do your homework and understand the numbers before you throw them at people. There are slightly lower U-factors available as well, but not with the features of the Schuco products.


S: "The"felt" weather stripping that other windows use, on a Shuco is Lambs wool, sewed into mylar, coated with teflon. "

R: Wrong again. Schuco weatherstripping is provided by Ultrafab and is a Mylar reinforced Polyfiber. It has no need to be teflon coated. Their bulb seals are provided by Intech.


S: "Nighttime ventilation clips made of Noreen. "

R: They are made of Lexan.


S: "Extruded full length lift rails. "

R: 98% of the industry has extruded lift rails. The Corona series has the much preferred steel lifts.


S: "BTW, we INVENTED the tilt-in sash.

R: My fingers are gettting numb from corrections. The tilt-in sashes have been around since the early 1960's even used by Graham Windows and Maynard Windows.


S: 3 BILLION Dollars a year in sales. 54 years in business.

R: Actually.. closer to 2 Billion


S: FJB Associates, who btw, happen to own the plant where all insul-sash windows in the US are made.

R: The owners of FJB "Used" to own the old Homecraft plant before Schuco bought it. They produced the older, notorious Insulsash product before it was redisigned by Schuco. The newer Insulsash is a series manufactured by Schuco for exclusive distribution by FJB. Schuco has their own independant lines which expand and continually develop every year. I just saw the new lines in Las Vegas... they are unbelieveable.



Hipcat

I introduced Schuco to these sites knowing that educated consumers would research my statements and come to see that my recommendation of the product was duly warranted. Please keep in mind that any untruths you state can raise doubt and undo consumer confidence in any product.

Why is it that you prey on lessor qualified posters while you refuse to respond to my requests? I asked you to post the details of the 50% energy saving guaranty (which is NOT Schuco's) and to respond to a poster's plea for help on Insulsash replacement parts. Address the issues please.

Now you may consider yourself educated as well. The guy from Sears only stated what he was told and trained to believe... as you did. Keep researching... as the industry changes every day.


FenEx


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:17 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
Offline
Keep in mind the Schuco window you sell in Chicago may not be the "A" window that I sell.

All of the extrusions used by Schuco are molded at the plant in CT.
1987 was a mis-type.
Wantg to see the tape of the seal being applied to the glass at the plant? I could possibly send that to you.
The 1:50,000, the R-value, the U- value are all figures I was taught by the company with charts taken from various sources.
Actually, that strip is provided by Schlaggel Bros. It's called aSchlaggel Fin, which is lamb's wool, sewed into mylar, coated with teflon.
As for the Sash..Shuco has been in business since 1951. Did you ever think that just possibley Graham and Maynard, etc got that from someone else?? Remember, we were not in the US 'til 1997.
Actually, it's 3 billion.
That's right. Frank Bocian (FJB) owned the Homecraft plant, which is now owned by Shuco, which is where all the windows are built, and yes, FJB has exclusive distributor rights to the current insulsash.
our office just happens to be there, too.

OIK, so now I'm going to go out to my truck, get my case, take out the 50% fuel pledge, and the certificate AND the sticker off of a window so you can see how it's spelled: Schūco


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:58 pm
Posts: 1335
Location: Northern & Central Illinois, Chicago suburbs
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#1. The Schuco 2004 worldwide sales figures for windows are 1.7 billion. With total systems sales that figure is right at 2 billion. Your 3 billion number is in error, and you can believe it. The numbers were right out of the Schuco Chairman's mouth at the convention in Las Vegas last week. Is he a liar too Hipcat?

#2 The extrusions are NOT molded at the plant in Ct. As someone who is a dealer and has actually been at the plant, I can tell you 100% they are not.

#3
Schuco does not make doublehung windows anywhere else in the world except here. The tilt in for cleaning feature you speak of was not invented by Schuco. The feature you speak of is a tilt and turn, which is a window style which tilts for ventilation, not a tilt feature for cleaning.

#4 FenEx nor I need to see your "tape" of the glass process at the factory. We have both seen it up close and personal.

#5 ..... Oh heck, why am I even bothering to respond. You are so full of crap it's not even worth it.
Why don't you go back to driving a truck Hipcat. Your misleading BS is nauseating. I'm embarrassed we sell the same product.


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