Brick Home - Less glass area with Full frame replacement?

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EltonNoway
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Brick Home - Less glass area with Full frame replacement?

#1 Post by EltonNoway »

Please help! I'm ready to purchase but ran into some confusion today. My house has a brick facade exterior. I talked to both a Soft-Lite and Okna rep who said a full frame replacement will NOT yield any more glass area than a standard pocket replacement... in fact they said it will yield less. :?

Two reasons were given...
1) I was informed... with a brick house, the brick window opening dictates the replacement window size because they are inserted from the outside. (This makes perfect sense)
2) As it was explained to me, the reason I will have less glass area ... on a full replacement... they remove everything down to the rough opening, including the old window sill, side jambs and head jamb. They will then install a new jamb box (side jamb, head jamb and sill plate). Once the new jamb box is installed in the rough opening they will set their vinyl window inside the new jamb assembly. Anyway... because the frames of replacement vinyl windows are thicker than the frames of the old wood windows being removed I will end up with less glass area. I'm so confused... I've read multiple threads in this forum by various installation experts stating full frame replacements will yield more glass than a pocket replacement.

When they remove the old wood window assembly and jambs, I don't understand why a new wood window jamb box needs to be installed. In that case I could just leave the old jamb assembly in and save money by doing a pocket replacement. From several photos I've seen it appears a quality vinyl window, with an integrated sill, can be placed directly in the rough opening... like this.

Image

The Soft-Lite rep said a new jamb box is required so they can shim, level and plumb the new windows for a perfect fit.

Is installing a new jamb box part of the normal process when doing a full frame replacement?

Could it be the reps are only familiar with the installation details of a pocket replacement?

Can the Elements or 800 (with their integrated sills) be placed directly into the rough opening as shown in the above photo.

Any idea where the confusion might be?

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Brick Home - Less glass area with Full frame replacement?

#2 Post by Windows on Washington »

Totally depends on the home and how the brick was done. The sill of the window does need to terminate on the sill course of the brick so you won't, in all likelihood, be dropping it on the RO stud on the bottom.

They are probably right. Many insert options (when using a thin profile window) don't cost you much glass at all. Some will give you more glass but that is by far the exception and not the rule.

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EltonNoway
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Re: Brick Home - Less glass area with Full frame replacement?

#3 Post by EltonNoway »

Windows on Washington wrote:Totally depends on the home and how the brick was done. The sill of the window does need to terminate on the sill course of the brick so you won't, in all likelihood, be dropping it on the RO stud on the bottom.

They are probably right. Many insert options (when using a thin profile window) don't cost you much glass at all. Some will give you more glass but that is by far the exception and not the rule.
Well... I just tore off the interior window casing, the exterior brickmold and cut away some drywall to expose the framing of the rough opening. Here' what I found:

When the brick opening is viewed from "outside" the house. The bottom plate of the rough opening where the sill will rest is directly behind the sill course of brick with the top edge of the lumber RO dead being even with the top edge of the brick sill course.
(in other words, the bottom piece of lumber making the rough opening is not visible from outside because sits behind the sill course of brick). However, the full 1 1/2 inch of the top framing timber of the rough opening is completely exposed just below the top course of brick. (see pic) Although not shown in my drawing, when viewed from outside, one full inch of the rough opening lumber is exposed on both the left and right side of of the brick opening.

Image

Not sure if 1 inch of lumber on the sides and top is enough to work with.

Can a replacement window like the Soft-Lite Elements be mounted, shimmed and squared in a rough opening without building a jamb box inside the rough opening? I was hoping to gain 1 1/2 inches in both width and height by eliminating the jamb box. Am I out of luck considering what I have to work with?
Last edited by EltonNoway on Fri May 01, 2015 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheWindowNerd
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Re: Brick Home - Less glass area with Full frame replacement?

#4 Post by TheWindowNerd »

If you have a typical wood prime DH. You will gain 1.5" in visible glass width and up to 3" in height by doing a full tear out.
The Okna 800DX is a great window, it like most vinyl replacement windows is 3 1/4" thick. A typical wood window in a 2 x 4 framed wall will be 5 1/2" to 6" thick. Thus if you only put in a vinyl window into the RO you will have to do something to make up the difference. Two options a jamb extension(JE) and stool or dry wall return. Many vinyl windows you can order from the factory with primed or stain grade JE applied.

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Re: Brick Home - Less glass area with Full frame replacement?

#5 Post by EltonNoway »

TheWindowNerd wrote:If you have a typical wood prime DH. You will gain 1.5" in visible glass width and up to 3" in height by doing a full tear out. (snip)...
My house has typical wood DH (32 years old). In regards to the "gain" in visible glass you mentioned.... are you saying I should get that? When I told the Soft-Lite dealer my goal behind a full tear out was to gain visible glass... he that wouldn't happen for several reasons as follows: A brick window opening dictates the size that can be installed, that he needs to build a new box "inside" the rough opening so he has something to nail the brickmold to.

The Soft-Lite dealer has been installing Soft-Lite windows for over 20 years... but admits he only does one full tear out a year if that. I'm concerned it might be he's just not familiar with the technique and the potential benefit to the homeowner. I really like the installer but feel I'm stressing him out. Is he confused or is it me?
Last edited by EltonNoway on Fri May 01, 2015 3:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Brick Home - Less glass area with Full frame replacement?

#6 Post by TheWindowNerd »

Nope, it is not you.
We do up to 50% full tear outs.
OK, let make this simple: lets say the existing wood DH has a sash opening of 32" x 53 3/4", you would order your insert vinyl replacement at 31 3/4 x 53 1/2" ( that would be considered measured tight). If you remove the DH frame you would then order the window 33 1/2" x 57", the difference between the insert measure and the full frame measure is all need gain in visible glass.

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Re: Brick Home - Less glass area with Full frame replacement?

#7 Post by Windows on Washington »

Our work is mostly insert. Not quite as heavy as your installers but when you give folks the additional material/labors costs along with the necessity to paint or change blinds, they normally opt for the insert option.

In theory, you could run the larger width window and just have a small capping return on the exterior but it would look odd.

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Re: Brick Home - Less glass area with Full frame replacement?

#8 Post by EltonNoway »

TheWindowNerd wrote:Nope, it is not you.
We do up to 50% full tear outs.
OK, let make this simple: lets say the existing wood DH has a sash opening of 32" x 53 3/4", you would order your insert vinyl replacement at 31 3/4 x 53 1/2" ( that would be considered measured tight). If you remove the DH frame you would then order the window 33 1/2" x 57", the difference between the insert measure and the full frame measure is all need gain in visible glass.
Okay... thanks... that makes perfect sense and what I was assuming. Now I'm faced with how do I help the dealer understand what I'm requesting. I have one day left to cancel the contract and am worried I won't be able to make him see the light. He says they have to remove the old DH window frame, then insert a new frame which will net the same measurement as the frame he's removing. When doing a full tear out you remove the old DH frame... are you saying you don't install a new frame? My guy says its necessary.
His argument is the rough opening may not be square and the needs a box for the window so he can shim and square the new windows. I'd hate to think the Soft-Lite Elements isn't strong enough to support itself without an additional frame?
Windows on Washington wrote:... when you give folks the additional material/labors costs along with the necessity to paint or change blinds, they normally opt for the insert option.

In theory, you could run the larger width window and just have a small capping return on the exterior but it would look odd.
Yep... I struggled with the additional $5000 it will cost me for the full frame. He said the additional $250 per window was for labor, materials, (new inside & outside casing) and construction of the new frame assembly. While I understand the expense, he's telling me I'll have "less" glass area than I do now. I'm at the end of my rope! Everything I read in these forums tells me he should be able to work with the rough opening (the reason for a full tearout).

UPDATE( adding this 90 minutes after my above reply... sorry )
I just read in another thread in this forum where someone stated ... one advantage to a full replacement / tear out is you gain more glass area because you can use the space previously occupied by the pulleys and weights. That got me thinking.

In the interest of this subject and gaining glass area, I decided to dismantle one of my windows. Guess what?... No pulleys... no cords, no weights. Just some cheap spring assist system that was hiding between two rails of the sash guides. Because the old window frame is tight against the right and left side of the rough opening if the installer installs a new frame assembly I clearly won't gain any glass from left to right.

Below is a photo showing the spring system in case someone else runs into a similar situation. The photo I also includes two inset pics showing the condition of the current frame assembly. What I also discovered... there are no shims or blocks of any kind under the sill plate. The window is nailed on both the side jambs and head jamb but "no" support, nails or screws of any kind securing the sill to the rough opening!

Damage after 32 years of slamming windows on a sill with no support is evident!

So... last question... Does the installer need to replace the frame box (in which case I gain no additional glass area)... or can they install the new windows (Soft-Lite Elements) directly in the rough opening?

Image
Last edited by EltonNoway on Fri May 01, 2015 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Brick Home - Less glass area with Full frame replacement?

#9 Post by Windows on Washington »

Probably could have saved you some time by just telling you that you didn't have sausage weights and pulleys.

By the way, regardless of balance size, your exterior opening size will dictate your maximum size window that you can install.

Sills are never secured to the framing through the sill. Basically defeats the water shedding benefit by putting a big hole in it.

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EltonNoway
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Re: Brick Home - Less glass area with Full frame replacement?

#10 Post by EltonNoway »

Windows on Washington wrote:Probably could have saved you some time by just telling you that you didn't have sausage weights and pulleys.

By the way, regardless of balance size, your exterior opening size will dictate your maximum size window that you can install.

Sills are never secured to the framing through the sill. Basically defeats the water shedding benefit by putting a big hole in it.
Thanks for the response! Yep, my installer reiterates what you have said... the brick opening will determine the window size. Sorry to beat this dead horse... but does the installer need to install a new jamb frame in the rough opening or can the he attach the new windows directly to the rough opening? I was hoping to pick up 1 1/2 inches by eliminating the frame.

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Re: Brick Home - Less glass area with Full frame replacement?

#11 Post by Windows on Washington »

You can, in theory, attach right to the RO as long as the width of the window is narrower than the brick to brick measurement and will fit between the bricks. You could ditch the brickmold and go with a small capping return to the brick but it would look a bit different.

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Re: Brick Home - Less glass area with Full frame replacement?

#12 Post by EltonNoway »

Windows on Washington wrote:You can, in theory, attach right to the RO as long as the width of the window is narrower than the brick to brick measurement and will fit between the bricks. You could ditch the brickmold and go with a small capping return to the brick but it would look a bit different.
Great... Thank You W.O.W ... just the response I was hoping for.

FYI: In the meantime... waiting for someone to reply... I called Softlite Headquarters in Ohio and talked to one of their lead technicians. He said "yes" the Soft-Lite window "can" be installed directly into a rough opening, as well as in a jamb box. I told him my installer wants to tear everything out then install a new frame. He said either process is acceptable but how the windows are installed depends on the installer and what process they are most familiar with. He said they have some installers that do it both ways, adding... vinyl windows were "originally" intended as replacements to be installed in the old frame but over the years the industry has adapted to vinyl in new construction as well as full replacements without the jamb box. Some older installers prefer the process they originally learned. He added, if I am paying for the material and labor (extra expense) of a full tearout and having to deal with possible drywall damage and having to paint the interior trim he can appreciate why my preference is to use the rough opening as save glass area if possible. He asked if any of the rough opening was visible inside the brick opening. I told him yes.

Below is a net of the conversation:
On brick house, remove the old windows and jambs right down to the rough opening. Inspect the opening from the outside. If the enough rough opening is visible this will provide the necessary substrate needed for attachment of the exterior trim / brickmold. You can shim and square the window in the opening and secure it with spray foam insulation (i.e. not frame / jamb box required).

On your new windows, remove any nail fins or flange if present because they are not used in this replacement scenario (i.e. brick siding). Once the rough opening is exposed, remove the sashes from your new vinyl replacement windows. This will leave you with the bare vinyl frame assembly. Put the vinyl frame into the rough opening. Be aware the installer may need to build up the sill of the rough opening an inch or more to insure the weep holes of the screen track are "above" the brick sill. Insert screws through the frame in the locations specified. Replace the sashes. Using spray foam insulation fill any gaps around the vinyl window frame where it adjoins the rough opening. Install new brickmold and interior casing. The full replacement process is not difficult but is more costly than a standard replacement due to the extra materials and time required. Brick face homes are actually faster to install because on homes with siding, the siding is usually peeled back so the installer can utilize the nailing fin and tape the perimeter to the sheathing before putting the siding back on.

UPDATE: Sun May 03, 2015 10:21 pm
As stated by W.O.W on two different occasions...
Windows on Washington wrote:You can, in theory, attach right to the RO as long as the width of the window is narrower than the brick to brick measurement and will fit between the bricks. You could ditch the brickmold and go with a small capping return to the brick but it would look a bit different.
And...
Windows on Washington wrote: In theory, you could run the larger width window and just have a small capping return on the exterior but it would look odd.
BINGO.... right on both counts! As mentioned earlier I wasn't sure my dealer and I were on the same page. As it turns out... he was trying to explain why it wouldn't work and I was hearing it couldn't be done. Rather than trying to explain it to me again, the dealer graciously arranged to send out one of his lead installers... (on a Saturday) "with" a window from his inventory to install it into a rough opening of my house so I could see the finished result! NET: Yes... he was able to install in in the rough opening without using a jamb box and yes you pick up more glass area by eliminating the jamb box. However... as W.O.W cautioned me, by attaching to the rough opening it only left a 3/4" of an inch space around the window (i.e., no room (not enough width) for standard brick molding to be installed. The installer was able to wrap the window with G8 trim coil but due to the limited space between the edge of the window frame and the brick opening there was not enough space to do any fancy detail bends. Just a flat 3/4" frame around the window. I'll admit it looked a little strange. I'm used to seeming brickmold around a window. (Sorry... like a dummy I didn't take any photos) but it reminded me of a 60's era brick house with aluminum windows (i.e. window frame edge against the brick opening with no brickmold.

NET: The dealer and I are back on track. He will be installing new window jamb boxes which means there will be less glass area than with my current old wood windows but at least now I understand why.

Moral of the story... gaining additional glass area in a home with brick siding is possible but the options and end results are not as cut and dried as they when a home has vinyl or wood siding.

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Re: Brick Home - Less glass area with Full frame replacement?

#13 Post by TheWindowNerd »

You have to realize that the brick mold on a traditional wood window overlaps the jamb by 3/4", also the wood window does not have a screen track protruding off of it.
Often you can get the BM to fit between the screen track and the brick.

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