Aluminum Wrap INSTEAD of exterior trim?

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mhitesman
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Aluminum Wrap INSTEAD of exterior trim?

#1 Post by mhitesman »

I had a local home improvement store install a vinyl replacement picture window for me. It replaced a vinyl (original) vinyl window which was aluminum wrapped as are all the windows and doors on my 15 year old house. The old windows were Rolox, which is another story.

The "new" exterior wrap was much deeper (windows depth was narrower) and also wider than the other windows on my house but otherwise acceptable. However, when I washed the exterior windows this Spring (was installed during the winter) I observed that all the caulking used to hold the pieces of aluminum wrap together (it was not bent but constructed of pieces of aluminum, held together with caulk) had come loose and the slightest pressure revealed inside the hollow cavity underneath the wrap. There is no wood or PVC trim around the windows at all. I see insulation and then inside my house. I called the store, complaining, and they eventually sent someone out to take a look (same installer) who tells me that aluminum wrapped windows cannot have "brick mould" or any kind of trim and none is needed. He put more caulk on the joins that hold the aluminum pieces on the house and said he would talk to his manager but that he has been doing this for dozens of years, no caulk has ever come loose, this is how it has to be installed, etc etc etc. I have always been told (and it has been my experience) that aluminum wrap was to WRAP the exterior trim, not to replace it. There is nothing insulating my house from the cold and weather except a line of caulk that has already come loose and allowed rain inside! My house is stucco.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Aluminum Wrap INSTEAD of exterior trim?

#2 Post by HomeSealed »

At first glance, your worries are not unfounded. Always tough to comment on specifics however without more in depth info. Can you post some pics perhaps?

toddinmn
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Re: Aluminum Wrap INSTEAD of exterior trim?

#3 Post by toddinmn »

Doesn't sound good. I always have wood behind my metal. We need pics to thoroughly criticize.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Aluminum Wrap INSTEAD of exterior trim?

#4 Post by HomeSealed »

toddinmn wrote: We need pics to thoroughly criticize.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Guy
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Re: Aluminum Wrap INSTEAD of exterior trim?

#5 Post by Guy »

So many installers have different methods of capping a window. The two above me nailed it. We can't answer this one without some pictures!

mhitesman
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Re: Aluminum Wrap INSTEAD of exterior trim?

#6 Post by mhitesman »

Unfortunately, the installer came back out to "repair" and merely RE-Caulked all four sides, sealing over the exposed insulation. I would have to break the seal to take a photo at this point. He informed me, at this point, that he ALWAYS installs vinyl windows without any kind of trim and that aluminum wrap is therefore mandatory even though it was an option for which I paid Home Depot $100 extra. I have two issues with the installation: 1. There is nothing supporting the aluminum wrap on this window -- just the caulk holds it together. 2. Aluminum and a tiny bit of fiberglass insulation is all I have between the weather and the heated space of my house. Surely trim piece should cover the insulation? There WAS a trim piece but it did not fit with the replacement window. Installer said it was just a 1/2" trim piece. I have no idea if the picture uploaded or not. Guess I'll see if this posts with photos.
Last edited by mhitesman on Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Aluminum Wrap INSTEAD of exterior trim?

#7 Post by HomeSealed »

Is it a widely accepted or recommended procedure? No. That said, the legal aspect will really come down to what is specified in your contract.
I'm certain that you don't need any insult to injury at this point, but this is the type of thing that we warn about with box stores and the type of installation to expect.

mhitesman
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Re: Aluminum Wrap INSTEAD of exterior trim?

#8 Post by mhitesman »

No offense taken. Frankly, I went with the box store because the old window was from a small company that put a lifetime warranty on it. When I called for warranty repair, I was told the company had restructured and maintained the assets but not the liabilities..meaning my warranty. He did offer to sell me a new window with another lifetime warranty. Since I was relatively new to this area, I had no one to reliably receive recommendations from. The tile contractor cheated me (but did nice work). The plumber has caused issues that, so far, are amounting to thousands of dollars and I have paid multiple times for the same job. Some required cutting out the ceiling. It is dangerous to move to a new area and just trust something like Angies list or even neighbors who have not had extensive work done. The first guy recommended for running my hot water through my ground source heat pump screwed it up and it cost me another $400 to get someone qualified to fix it. I figured if Home Depot screwed it up they would stand behind it or at least not go out of business on me. I agree with you. I just have no reliable resources to find qualified help and it is harder than ever to find someone who give a S***.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Aluminum Wrap INSTEAD of exterior trim?

#9 Post by HomeSealed »

I hear ya, and I feel for ya on that. Thing is, HD doesn't make the windows either, and the product that they carry could just as easily lose the warranty as the medium or small dealer. Manufacturers large and small go under or file for bankruptcy protection every day. The best thing that you can do as a consumer is do sufficient research (if there is such a thing), in order to minimize your risk. Risk of the manufacturer going under, risk of the dealer going under, risk of getting a bad product, risk of getting a bad install, bad service, and so on and so forth... You mentioned a resource like angie's which in itself is not an end-all, be-all, but they and other similar outfits can certainly help build a picture of the type of experience that you can expect...

Again, none of this is really relevant to rectifying your situation at this point so I apologize for that, I just wanted to respond to the struggles that you experienced. There are good (and bad) companies/choices out there of every size, shape, and situation, so don't completely lose faith. The best thing that you can do is share all of your experiences positive and negative on those sites and others, with friends and neighbors etc, to help out fellow consumers... Just my $.02 :)

Back to the details of your issue, have you asked the installer (and his superiors) how this trim is secured (now and in the future) without being fastened to a trim board behind it?

Guy
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Re: Aluminum Wrap INSTEAD of exterior trim?

#10 Post by Guy »

The big box stores are so hit and miss it stinks. The big problem is they don't pay their installers enough money to do a good job. The stores don't give a crap how it looks or turns out. They just push their installers to get the job done and move on to the next. Most of the big box installers are rookies or installers who have screwed so many jobs up they can't get work any where else. These installers are uneducated and most of them really don't know what they're doing.

I use a thicker capping than most other installers. I use the capping made for Pellas windows just because it's much thicker. It beats my brake up badly. It's like bending that 1958 Buick fender. If I cap a vinyl window I'll always back it with wood if the face is over 1 1/2". We always hem each edge to make the metal more rigid. Most other installers don't hem their edges. We always lock our capping into the accessory grove securely and caulk. Then we back caulk to the J Bead and finish caulk the seam. I dread removing my capping if I have to replace a window we installed. Pulling our capping off is a nightmare. There's no saving the old capping. I also bend my capping to look like Traditional Brickmould to make the window look nicer from the exterior. I hate the flat ugly way some guys cap their windows. I'm just one of those goofy installers who likes my stuff different from the norm. Sorry you got stuck in that mess. I feel for you! Good Luck!!!

TheWindowNerd
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Re: Aluminum Wrap INSTEAD of exterior trim?

#11 Post by TheWindowNerd »

Guy,
Do you always hem the edge that you insert into the receiver groove?
I like to but it can be an overly tight fit into a Pella receiver groove.
We also back caulk the cap into the receiver groove.
Yep, I hate to remove anything we install too.

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Delaware Mike
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Re: Aluminum Wrap INSTEAD of exterior trim?

#12 Post by Delaware Mike »

Guy described box store subs perfectly. The money that they pay them per window defies the ability to correctly do this kind of work. I've tried some crews in the past and it's always the same result. Piss Poor! Way too many short cuts, out of date techniques, and bad habits.

Good mechanics appreciate and prefer better materials. The .024" metal and even the better Mastic stuff with more nickel in it is night and day from the run of the mill .019" stuff. Guy described some techniques and trade terms that only perhaps us industry guys would know of, but the bottom line is the long term guys that really care about their work are taking the extra steps like hemming their capping, accessory groove placement of the capping returns into the window for a super clean uniform look, blinds caulking and cladding metal to the wood window casings, trim formed brickmold bends over brickmolding.

I had to remove some accessory groove hemmed capping to some OKNA 800's that I installed last year due to hail damage to the siding. We were contracted to replace all of the siding and trim, thus I took that opportunity mechanically fasten 5/4" trim boards atop the window flanges on the original window frames there were retrofitted. Removing my capping that was cladded via back caulking the aluminum window capping with OSI Quad is not fun at all. I had to stretch and score the accessory grooved hemming capping returns an inch at a time to get it too release. That capping was never going to leak. What a nightmare. Some spots we randomly found that I used up some Novaflex silicone and that was like hitting the lottery as it removed much easier than Quad once cut.

I was about to call Riggs from Lethal Weapon 2 so he could bring his 3500 dually over and hook up some toe straps to that capping to pull it off!

Guy
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Re: Aluminum Wrap INSTEAD of exterior trim?

#13 Post by Guy »

I always hem both sides. Some accessory grooves are a bit narrower than others. If I have a tight squeeze I take my hand seamers and squeeze the hem down.

masterext
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Re: Aluminum Wrap INSTEAD of exterior trim?

#14 Post by masterext »

Do not take this the wrong way but wow !!! You had problems with a plumber, a tile contractor, and now a window contractor ???? I guess my question would be this: what kind of research do you do when you attempt to hire someone? When we see a consumer constantly have bad luck, its usually due to the consumer hiring someone soley based on the fact that they are cheap while ignoring the quality of the product and installation procedure.
Usually, its the cheaper guys that cause all the problems. Like any other profession, a true professional will/ should be paid more than a " jack of all trades" who was recommended by a friend. If a homeowner is looking to have issues then hire the cheap guy, its almost a sure thing.
Again, not saying this is what you did, just saying this is the norm with the cheaper guys whether its a contractor, a lawyer, an accountant, or anyone else.
You can still wrap a window without any wood behind it by " boxing the aluminum" which is quite common. Normally, a window exterior isnt capped if there is no brickmould .
Unless the contract specifically stated they would trim the windows with new wood and then cap, i dont see how you would have a leg to stand on.

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