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 Post subject: Finally getting quotes this weekend
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:41 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:01 pm
Posts: 29
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We have three companies coming over this weekend (at different times of course) to offer quotes on about 8 windows, double hung and casements styles.
We were going to focus on the Simonton brand (as have one window, triple pane laminate, with that one and liked it) and Sunrise (though only one of the three companies installs Sunrise and Simonton). So it's not going to be 100% apples to apples comparison.
We currently have mostly builder grade windows in the house (south facing condensation issues and replacing all of those). The patio door and one window were already replaced by the insurance company a few years ago so we'll try and match the look (simple).

We don't want anything too expensive or glamorous. Focusing on weather insulation, sun exposure, etc. We also back to a busy street but even with the builders grade windows, sound really hasn't been an issue.

So I want to prepare. What questions should I ask the installers? I've read foam filled chambers and foam wrap are a good option to have.

We kind of have a budget in our head, but don't know if it's realistic.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Finally getting quotes this weekend
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:06 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
Posts: 666
Location: New Jersey Window Pro- Northern NJ and Central NJ
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Foam filling inside the frame( chambers), true welded sloped sill with no plastic weep flaps on the outside is a good start.


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 Post subject: Re: Finally getting quotes this weekend
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:00 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:27 am
Posts: 988
Location: Houston, TX
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Foam wraps are useless. Applied spray foam around the perimeter during installation is the way to go.

With Simonton, I'd always recommend upgrading to the sash reinforcement, particularly with heavier glass.


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 Post subject: Re: Finally getting quotes this weekend
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Where are you located? Beware that new energy star standards have manufacturers doing some funky stuff with their glass offerings these days, including those two. Not bad windows, just make sure that you are informed on the glass package and its application to your climate.
On the foam and other options, my best advice is to look at the thermal and structural ratings (u factor, shgc, condensation resistance, air leakage, etc). Those numbers reflect the sum of the parts of a window


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 Post subject: Re: Finally getting quotes this weekend
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:55 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:01 pm
Posts: 29
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I'm located in Denver, Colorado.

HomeSealed wrote:
Where are you located? Beware that new energy star standards have manufacturers doing some funky stuff with their glass offerings these days, including those two. Not bad windows, just make sure that you are informed on the glass package and its application to your climate.
On the foam and other options, my best advice is to look at the thermal and structural ratings (u factor, shgc, condensation resistance, air leakage, etc). Those numbers reflect the sum of the parts of a window


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 Post subject: Re: Finally getting quotes this weekend
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:13 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:01 pm
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And what number should I be looking for in regards to the thermal and structural ratings?
Thanks.

HomeSealed wrote:
On the foam and other options, my best advice is to look at the thermal and structural ratings (u factor, shgc, condensation resistance, air leakage, etc). Those numbers reflect the sum of the parts of a window


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 Post subject: Re: Finally getting quotes this weekend
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:05 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
Posts: 4350
Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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Where you are Air filtration rating will have as much importance as thermal and structural numbers. In terms of the thermal and structural numbers I would want to see are U-factor of .25 and below and a design pressure of 50 or greater.

Air infiltration should be 0.05 or below.


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 Post subject: Re: Finally getting quotes this weekend
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:10 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:01 pm
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Thank you.

Windows on Washington wrote:
Where you are Air filtration rating will have as much importance as thermal and structural numbers. In terms of the thermal and structural numbers I would want to see are U-factor of .25 and below and a design pressure of 50 or greater.

Air infiltration should be 0.05 or below.


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 Post subject: Re: Finally getting quotes this weekend
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:10 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Great advice from WoW.

Regarding my original question, being in Denver, you are in the Northern zone as determined by Energy Star. This means to hit the .27 u factor with double pane glass, those manufacturers are using a surface 4 low e coating. This is a process that has some merit in the proper circumstances, however it is used in most cases just to get the u factor down, and does so at the expense of decimating the condensation resistance rating. This is something that you should be aware when shopping. Personally I'd opt to upgrade to triple pane to get Energy Star, OR, not even worry about Energy Star and get a glass package that will serve you better.


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 Post subject: Re: Finally getting quotes this weekend
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
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Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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Good point HomeSealed.

A bunch of manufacturers will be going to surface 4 to make those numbers and the is going to create some real condensation issues to be certain.


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 Post subject: Re: Finally getting quotes this weekend
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:47 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:01 pm
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How do I know to verify these numbers?
I tried going to Simonton's site to look up the 5500 specs and found the areas were it mentioned some of these but it stated "(insert number here)" as if there wasn't a number and they didn't fill it in.
Would I ask the installer when he comes for a quote? Will he give me valid numbers?


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 Post subject: Re: Finally getting quotes this weekend
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:51 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:01 pm
Posts: 29
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HomeSealed:

I'm sure there are great windows out there that can do this that won't cost an arm and a leg? Correct? Would you recommend any window manufacturers/brands like that? Would Simonton not fit the bill?
I find that sometimes contractors get intimidated by me when I approach them with research and education.

HomeSealed wrote:
Great advice from WoW.

Regarding my original question, being in Denver, you are in the Northern zone as determined by Energy Star. This means to hit the .27 u factor with double pane glass, those manufacturers are using a surface 4 low e coating. This is a process that has some merit in the proper circumstances, however it is used in most cases just to get the u factor down, and does so at the expense of decimating the condensation resistance rating. This is something that you should be aware when shopping. Personally I'd opt to upgrade to triple pane to get Energy Star, OR, not even worry about Energy Star and get a glass package that will serve you better.


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 Post subject: Re: Finally getting quotes this weekend
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
Posts: 2350
Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Simonton and Sunrise both make fine windows. I am not recommending against either of them here (although I prefer the Sunrise), just that you make an informed decision on the glass choice. Energy Star v6 just came out, and as I explained above, both manufacturers and salespeople will likely spec an improper glass application for your climate in order to try and comply with that. The new standards are probably an improvement over the old ones, however, they have really just created a new set of issues, particularly for the Northern region and the .27 u factor requirement.
Your best bet will be triple pane if you want to be energy star qualified in those lines, or pick a double pane that fits your needs but may not qualify. You can request a CPD number for the window that they are proposing, and cross reference that on nfrc.org to see the actual ratings and detail of the IGU.


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 Post subject: Re: Finally getting quotes this weekend
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:43 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:01 pm
Posts: 29
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Thank you. I feel like I need to be an engineer here. ;)
Just wondering...I don't want to intimidate anyone but I find when I come with educated questions, contractors (or some) are put off by this and end up abandoning the quote. Like they don't want to work with someone who's done their research. I've literally already been questioned by one company when they asked me questions about what I was looking for and made me feel defensive when they questioned why or how I knew about these different brands and such.

HomeSealed wrote:
Simonton and Sunrise both make fine windows. I am not recommending against either of them here (although I prefer the Sunrise), just that you make an informed decision on the glass choice. Energy Star v6 just came out, and as I explained above, both manufacturers and salespeople will likely spec an improper glass application for your climate in order to try and comply with that. The new standards are probably an improvement over the old ones, however, they have really just created a new set of issues, particularly for the Northern region and the .27 u factor requirement.
Your best bet will be triple pane if you want to be energy star qualified in those lines, or pick a double pane that fits your needs but may not qualify. You can request a CPD number for the window that they are proposing, and cross reference that on nfrc.org to see the actual ratings and detail of the IGU.


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 Post subject: Re: Finally getting quotes this weekend
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:25 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
Posts: 666
Location: New Jersey Window Pro- Northern NJ and Central NJ
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Im always fine with questions. However, a lot of guys worry when someone is overly inquisitive, they are a potential headache and would rather pass on the business. Contractors like other profesionals, dont want a home owner telling them how to work. I know it sounds rather trivial but some guys are just like that.


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