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 Post subject: Spacer material across Sunrise brands?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:05 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:05 am
Posts: 26
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I started looking into the Sunrise line of windows just to compare them to the Okna offerings, as they garner good feedback as well. However, I was told that the spacer on the Vanguard is metallic :( (not as good thermal transfer properties as non-metallic types). Does anyone know if the spacer is metallic or other for the Restoration, Verde and Sunrise brands? The individual websites disclose very little, unless I'm not navigating them properly. Also, I noticed on the Sunrise sample at my local dealer that they use the "fuzzy square" approach to sealing at the sash junction corners. As others have stated - not an optimal approach. Since the Sunrise is the only sample I've seen at a dealer (and unfortunately I don't recall what the spacer was but I think metallic), I'm curious about some of the other distinguishing features between the models that might make them a contender against the Okna 500DX (or possibly the 800DX). I pretty much favor the Okna, but while I'm waiting for some appointments to happen, and some prices to come back, I thought I'd check some other contenders. BTW, I did read previous postings regarding the hierarchy of the Sunrise brands. I just don't have brochures in hand to answer my Q's.

As always, thanks for the informative support this forum provides.


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 Post subject: Re: Spacer material across Sunrise brands?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
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Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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While a truly non-metallic spacer should give you better edge of glass performance, the stainless spacer that Sunrise uses (via Cardinal Glass) is a great unit and I wouldn't hesitate buying anything with Cardinal's name on it either.


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 Post subject: Re: Spacer material across Sunrise brands?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:12 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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+1. Stainless spacer is used, and is a solid choice.

One thing to mention though, is that to my knowledge Sunrise needs both 366 glass and a surface 4 low e coating to meet the new Energy Star .27 u factor. Neither of those are desirable for most folks in a northern climate. Very good window, but I'd either opt for triple pane, or glass that does not meet Energy Star but may actually offer superior performance for you. The surface 4 low e in particular decimates condensation resistance.


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 Post subject: Re: Spacer material across Sunrise brands?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:33 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:05 am
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HomeSealed wrote:
+1. Stainless spacer is used, and is a solid choice.

One thing to mention though, is that to my knowledge Sunrise needs both 366 glass and a surface 4 low e coating to meet the new Energy Star .27 u factor. Neither of those are desirable for most folks in a northern climate. Very good window, but I'd either opt for triple pane, or glass that does not meet Energy Star but may actually offer superior performance for you. The surface 4 low e in particular decimates condensation resistance.


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 Post subject: Re: Spacer material across Sunrise brands?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:05 am
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Sorry I tried to copy HomeSealed's reply but couldn't get my question associated to it so here it is separately:
Can you elaborate why the 366 glass and the surface 4 low E is not desireable? I don't have that broad a knowledge to understand the ramifications of that package/setup.
Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Spacer material across Sunrise brands?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:50 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
Posts: 669
Location: New Jersey Window Pro- Northern NJ and Central NJ
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Sunrise use a low conductive " pure stainless steel" spacer system. Its a very good/ reliable spacer. Sunrise also make a nice window. I prefer either the vanguard or restorations.


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 Post subject: Re: Spacer material across Sunrise brands?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:00 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:05 am
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Is the negative to the 366 glass for northern customers (I'm in PA so just over the boundary) is that it will yield lower VT but more significantly lower SHGC (which in a northern zone you might want higher to allow the sun's warmth to penetrate the home)? Am I on the right track? Can someone elaborate on surface 4 low E please and why that might be bad for my location? Also, I am concerned about condensation (actually have some mold on a few windows which I bleach now and then) so spacer material with respect to edge heat/condensation sounds important as well. I just re-read HS's reply that "the surface 4 low E decimates condensation resistance" so that's why he is saying it's not so desirable for northern zone properties - it'll be weak on CR? Sorry about being slow on the uptake to HomeSealed's earlier reply but all this window technology is new to me (but fascinating too). I don't know what I'm going to do once I finally chose a window line and dealer and have them installed!! Probably have withdrawals, ha ha.


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 Post subject: Re: Spacer material across Sunrise brands?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:21 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:05 am
Posts: 26
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Just saw my Vanguard dealer responded with values as follows for
insulated frame, dual glazed, low-e & argon:

U-factor: 0.29
SHGC - 0.28
VT - O.54
CR - 57
AI - 0.1


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 Post subject: Re: Spacer material across Sunrise brands?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:32 pm
Posts: 851
Location: Delaware, New Jersey, Philadephia Area
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All the Vanguard double glazed DH units that I've installed had a .28 overall U-factor and air leakage at .04. They had to list the AI on their NFRC stickers a little differently as of last year. Sunrise was to go forward with Cardinals newest hybrid stainless spacer but that got scrapped it seemed, thus everything I've seen is still with the XL Edge tried and true spacer.

To meet the new Energy Star with the Sunrise lines I'd prefer to just go triple rather than an interior hard coat. The glass package that I normally order in double is called S2100A-Latitude. I've not had any seal failures that I can recall of with Sunrise since they switched over from Intercept to Cardinal XL Edge. I've had plenty of pre-2006 Sunrise Intercepts go bad on me from them. They have always made right on warranty claims.


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 Post subject: Re: Spacer material across Sunrise brands?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:34 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:05 am
Posts: 26
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For us non-pros, I found this site to help me better understand the relationship between U-Factor and SHGC based on your climate region:

https://www.nachi.org/shgc-ratings-windows.htm

Living in PA, it is evident that the Okna 500DX insulated frame, dual glazed, low-e & argon outperforms the Vanguard:

U-factor: 0.25
SHGC - 0.30
VT - O.55
CR - 62
AI - 0.02

Definitely liking the U-Factor/SHGC relationship better with the 500DX now that I understand the implications better.

Thanks again to all responders. Always appreciate the giving of your time and expert knowledge and experience. You rock!


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 Post subject: Re: Spacer material across Sunrise brands?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:36 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
Posts: 2353
Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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You are right on it beano. The surface 4 low e drops condensation resistance by 10+ points in many cases which is terrible. You have a good grasp on the shgc/vt aspect as well. The package that your dealer spec'd is what I'd recommend as well. It is not Energy Star qualified, but will be the most appropriate option short of going triple pane. Obviously the okna meets both criteria as you have already concluded.


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