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 Post subject: Full frame replacement: Nail fin vs. No nail fin
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:37 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:50 pm
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First, I want to thank all the contributors here. I learned a lot about different windows and installation methods from your posts. There is one thing I can't quite figure out about full frame replacement: Can full frame replacement be done without using a nail fin and how is it done? What are the pros and cons?

I have vinyl siding and brick walls on my house. I plan to replace the siding with or after the windows are replaced. I read on this website that new construction windows with an integrated nail fin may be a good option when you are replacing siding.

All of my quotes are for full frame replacement and different installers seem to have a preference regarding nail fin vs. no nail fin for installation. Which may be a better option for me?

I found a video on Youtube by an Anderson renewal dealer that states that it is recommended to use a replacement window without a nail fin in an old house. I am really confused.

Also does installing a new construction window void the manufacturer warranty in an old house?

I plan to get Okna 500 dx, 800 dx, Sunrise "standard" or Simonton 5500 ProSolar glass with Low-E and replace the siding with Certainteed or Prodigy 6-inch foam back vinyl siding.

I'd appreciate any advice.


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 Post subject: Re: Full frame replacement: Nail fin vs. No nail fin
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Great question Java. Can either or be done, sure. The main difference is that an installation with fin will be far more work, offer multiple additional levels of protection against water and air infiltration, and also therefore cost much more. There are very few instances where a full frame install without fin is recommended for any reason but cost savings. It is recognized in the industry as an acceptable method when executed properly, but again, definitely not as comprehensive any way you look at it.

Sounds like you are on the right track in terms of product, although performance-wise, the Simonton is lagging a bit behind those other two.


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 Post subject: Re: Full frame replacement: Nail fin vs. No nail fin
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:04 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:50 pm
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Thank you for the advice. I appreciate it. It sounds like using nail fin is the way to go for most situations. How much additional labor is involved with using a nail fin? Could you talk about how these are done (siding cut back and etc.)?

Is Simonton 5500 with integrated nail fins and J-channel compatible with foam back vinyl siding? How about Okna 500 dx?

Does it require additional exterior trim work to make these windows compatible with the foam back siding?


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 Post subject: Re: Full frame replacement: Nail fin vs. No nail fin
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:50 pm 

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:52 pm
Posts: 1670
Location: SE PA & NJ; CT
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If you are doing siding at the same time as the windows then an integral fin is a great way to go.
I almost never use a fin, our installs do not leak, also no air infiltration due to W&D foam.
Another difficulty with fin installs is that they effect your interior trim laying flat on the wall, in other words if you have something other than a true 4/ 9/16 or 6 9/16 wall thickness you may have trouble because of the jamb extension(JE).
The 800DX is my favorite vinyl window, it does not have an integral nail fin, you can option for a snap on fin that you have to apply.
The 5500DX (Okna) does have an integral fin.
With any foamed siding you will not be using the built in j channel has the siding pocket is not wide enough, so you will have to have the j channel for that particular siding around the window.

theWindowNerd.


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 Post subject: Re: Full frame replacement: Nail fin vs. No nail fin
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:17 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:50 pm
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Thank you WindowNerd. I appreciate your advice. Do window installation and siding replacement have to be done at the same time or can/should window installation with a fin be done shortly before siding replacement?

Do 800 Dx and 500 Dx come with jamb extension? Or are you saying that standard sized jamb extension pieces for 4-9/16- or 6-9/16 inch walls need to be modified if the wall thickness is not perfectly 4-9/16- or 6-9/16?


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 Post subject: Re: Full frame replacement: Nail fin vs. No nail fin
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
Posts: 4351
Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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They don't have to be done at the same time, but you will save on duplicitous labor when you combine projects as long as you have a contractor that can do, or at least manage, both project timetables.


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 Post subject: Re: Full frame replacement: Nail fin vs. No nail fin
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:08 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:50 pm
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Thank you, WoW.

Interestingly I have had two highly reviewed siding/roofing contractors that also install windows who couldn't tell me the cost of my project, which includes full frame replacement, exterior and interior trim work. One of them gave me the cost of siding installation + labor for window installation and then sent me to a building supply store to get the price for windows and the other could only give me an estimate for insert replacement but not for full frame replacement. Is this normal? I thought siding companies would have more experience with full frame window replacements.


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 Post subject: Re: Full frame replacement: Nail fin vs. No nail fin
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:23 pm 

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:52 pm
Posts: 1670
Location: SE PA & NJ; CT
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The majority of roofing and siding companies are not experts at window installations.
Most window installation companies do one or the other type of install, the vast majority doing the easier/quicker insert install, nothing wrong with that, they just do not have the experience of someone who actively does both just as readily.
If a siding contractor who says they do windows but has no hand sample or does not meet me at a showroom to help me with my final selection I would not use them for that part of my project. I would never ask a roofer or siding mechanic to install windows, particularly not full frame with full trim, not their best skill set. But then I am a nerd and a lot fussy.

If you are doing the two projects are going to happen then windows would go first then the siding. This can be within days of each other and best that way.
That is the way we do it.

theWindowNerd.


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 Post subject: Re: Full frame replacement: Nail fin vs. No nail fin
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:15 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
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Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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I would agree that a roofing company is the least likely to have all the bandwidth to run a project like this.

That said, there a quite a few good exterior remodelers that can manage a multi state project. You just need to find the right one that is comfortable working all the ends. Many window installers started out as siding installers and if they were good, got moved up to the more detail orientated work.

There's nothing innately complex about a full tear out application and especially when you are going back via a new construction window (i.e. nailing flange, pre-attached jamb extensions, etc.). At that point, you are just dealing with the interior trim details and while they do require more time and precision than your typical insert, most crews will have at least one team member that has a solid carpentry background.


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 Post subject: Re: Full frame replacement: Nail fin vs. No nail fin
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:50 pm
Posts: 6
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Thank you. This is very helpful.

Does installing a new construction window in an old home or using field-applied or snap-on fins void warranty? When I first heard this from a dealer, I didn't think much of it. But when I heard a similar statement from another dealer, I became curious. Does anyone know if this is true for Okna windows?


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 Post subject: Re: Full frame replacement: Nail fin vs. No nail fin
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:19 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
Posts: 669
Location: New Jersey Window Pro- Northern NJ and Central NJ
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Nothing wrong with a field applied flange. No, it will not void Okna's warranty.


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 Post subject: Re: Full frame replacement: Nail fin vs. No nail fin
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:21 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:50 pm
Posts: 6
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Thank you.


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