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 Post subject: Re: Input appreciated on couple brands
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:12 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
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Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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+1

CR of 44 is abysmal.


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 Post subject: Re: Input appreciated on couple brands
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:58 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:59 pm
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Thanks guys - HomeSealed - I think you are correct the glass package comes with Surface 4 coating on the interior which hurts CR rating from what I've read.

I've gotten 2016 NFRC specs directly from Sunrise rep and each window type e.g. double hung, tilt-in slider, etc do have different AI rating among other things. Double hung is .02 it looks like. Zen Lotus sliding AI is .1 so it's not .06 per the brochure it is for double hung. I pointed out to Sunrise rep that CR is pretty low and have not gotten a response from him yet. The dealer indicated I have tint film on every window and it is likely what makes condensation issue worse and he believes double pane with CR 44 would perform better. I'm asking him if he can guarantee that and if I continue to have issues then I should get another significant discount (if he agrees to this I will have it in writing). Zen Lotus triple pane has CR of 62.

I am not sure if there are different glass package with argon gas from Sunrise - I'm looking into it since I still like Sunrise Restorations. Worst case scenario, I might end up with Zen Lotus triple pane for all windows and Sunrise Restorations for patio sliding door (triple pane as well).

I suspect I'm probably pain in the butt to some dealers but I look closely to the performance specs and want to make sure I make a good investment.


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 Post subject: Re: Input appreciated on couple brands
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
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Location: New Jersey Window Pro- Northern NJ and Central NJ
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Either of those 2 options will be endorsed by me. Good heads up regarding the surface 4 lowE, it does have a negative impact on the condensation rating. Homesealed is right on the money.
You dont come across a pain at all. I wish all my customers did as much research as you did. Makes my job a whole lot easier.


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 Post subject: Re: Input appreciated on couple brands
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:08 am 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Sunrise does have alternate glass options. In situations where triple pane is not doable based on size restrictions, I'd opt for LAST YEAR'S standard double pane which was a .28 or .29 but had a much better CR sans the surface 4 low-e... Putting something in writing may or may not be worth the paper that its written on when it comes to guaranteeing performance compared to your existing windows. I strongly feel that the CR44 will not be something that you are happy with and would opt for the other option. I'm not recommending against Sunrise or this dealer, just against that glass option given your situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Input appreciated on couple brands
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:46 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:59 pm
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Hi all,

Just an update - between roofing project, gutters project, vacations and holidays I decided to postpone windows project until now.

Sunrise - only latitude glass with summit technology is available for Colorado most of them have poor CR rating though a few triple pane glasses have around 60 (some of them have high SHGC) but not available in larger sizes so unfortunately Sunrise is out.

Amerimax - pocket-sill design so it's out.

Zen Lotus - still in running I need to decide on glass package they offer Ultra (.26 SHGC) and Solar Ultra S (.19 SHGC).

Recently, the dealer that pushed Park Avenue followed up with me and apparently they offer Timeless Elite which is based on Soft-Lite however I'm not sure which line it's based on. He will send a quote over the weekend then I'll finally make a decision at some point next week. The dealer said the price is going to be a bit lower than Park Avenue so I'll have to wait and see.

What's the ideal range for SHGC for Denver metro area? And, does anyone know which Soft-Lite line Timeless Elite is based on?

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Input appreciated on couple brands
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:59 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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eshenem wrote:
Hi all,

Just an update - between roofing project, gutters project, vacations and holidays I decided to postpone windows project until now.

Sunrise - only latitude glass with summit technology is available for Colorado most of them have poor CR rating though a few triple pane glasses have around 60 (some of them have high SHGC) but not available in larger sizes so unfortunately Sunrise is out.

Amerimax - pocket-sill design so it's out.

Zen Lotus - still in running I need to decide on glass package they offer Ultra (.26 SHGC) and Solar Ultra S (.19 SHGC).

Recently, the dealer that pushed Park Avenue followed up with me and apparently they offer Timeless Elite which is based on Soft-Lite however I'm not sure which line it's based on. He will send a quote over the weekend then I'll finally make a decision at some point next week. The dealer said the price is going to be a bit lower than Park Avenue so I'll have to wait and see.

What's the ideal range for SHGC for Denver metro area? And, does anyone know which Soft-Lite line Timeless Elite is based on?

Thanks.

Based on what the website shows, the Timeless Elite is based on the Imperial LS window which is very good. That's the best window that you currently have under consideration. If its not the most expensive, that's another win.


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 Post subject: Re: Input appreciated on couple brands
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:37 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 11
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eshenem,

I'm looking for replacement windows in Colorado Springs and have probably been talking to at least one of the same Denver installers as you based on your description. I can't seem to find a way to send private messages on this board. Could you give me the name of the Sunrise Restorations dealer you're talking with in Denver? You can email me at (email removed) if you would like. I'm currently looking at Soft-Lite and Sunrise options. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Input appreciated on couple brands
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:09 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
Posts: 669
Location: New Jersey Window Pro- Northern NJ and Central NJ
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The amerimax is just an average window with average performance numbers.
Both sunrise and soft lite are in a different league.
The sunrise vanguard is very close to the restorations with the exception of the tilt latches.
Both have foam filled frames and fiberglass reinforcement. Restorations may have more reinforcement, not sure. The vanguard has very nice recessed locks and very nice fin style tilt latches. Its a sharp window but so is restorations.


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 Post subject: Re: Input appreciated on couple brands
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:52 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:59 pm
Posts: 19
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Got the estimate from dealer on Timeless Elite and it is more expensive than Zen Lotus; and estimate is based on original configurations. Zen Lotus estimate includes configuration changes (never liked sliding windows so am getting double hung there are just a few openings that require twin mulled double hungs) so with configuration changes I am sure a couple thousand dollars will be added for Timeless Elite. It's annoying that the dealer did not bother specifying glass package just "triple pane". So I'm closer to making the decision and Zen Lotus seems like a good choice given the selection available in my area.


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 Post subject: Re: Input appreciated on couple brands
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:52 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:59 pm
Posts: 19
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Digital Man, you are correct it doesn't look like there is a way to send PM. I'll send you an email tomorrow evening.


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 Post subject: Re: Input appreciated on couple brands
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:09 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Didn't catch this previously, but something does not sound right about Sunrise only offering that particular glass package in your area. Typically that would be a dealer decision. In some cases there are "exclusive" glass packages and such, but it sounds very strange that you would not be able to get a standard double pane with low e and argon... May be worth checking back into.

My two choices would be that Timeless Elite/Imperial LS, or the Sunrise Restorations. The Pro series from Zen, while solid, is an older design and a drop off from those two in quality. Additionally, it remains to be seen if Zen will have staying power in the industry. I assume that your local dealer has only been open for a few years, I'd scrutinize that aspect at least as much as you would any other local dealer with a very short history. This is a purchase that should have a 30+ year service life and often requires service after the sale, so keep that in mind when choosing.


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 Post subject: Re: Input appreciated on couple brands
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:23 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 11
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I have been told by all the Sunrise dealers I've talked to in Colorado that Sunrise doesn't do argon in Colorado, due to the altitude I assume. Here is a description from their website on the glass options for high altitude:

http://www.sunrisewindows.com/low-e-gla ... -altitude/

Looks like the Condensation Resistance is pretty low on most of the Sunrise choices. It is very dry here in Colorado, should we be concerned with the low CR?

I'm also looking at Soft-Lite Imperial LS and Soft-Lite will do argon in Colorado. Don't know if it's due to the argon, but the Imperial LS's have a CR of 59-62.


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 Post subject: Re: Input appreciated on couple brands
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:31 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
Posts: 2353
Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Thanks for the link Digital Man, that clarifies things a bit.

The difference in CR has less to do with argon, and more with the type of Low-e. To compensate for no argon and to improve the u value, they use a coating of low e on the interior surface of the glass (typical coatings are internal where they cannot be touched).
There are benefits to this, primarily the improved u value, with the main drawback being the reduced CR. This occurs because that coating reflects the heat before it is able to warm the inner-most pane of glass, or the airspace between. In a climate like here in WI, this is a pretty bad idea, as we have condensation issues even with CR ratings in the 60's. I'm not intimately familiar with the climate in your area, but if it does not get all that cold, and/or is very dry, it could actually be a compelling option...

The reason that myself and others are often on the "attack" on this issue, is that in the Northern Zone for Energy Star a .27 u value is needed (or an equivalent), and this is a way that many manufacturers achieve that. The problem of course, is that the Northern zone is exactly the worst place IMO to use it.


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 Post subject: Re: Input appreciated on couple brands
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:12 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:59 pm
Posts: 19
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Digital man is correct. I spoke to Sunrise rep directly and was given the same information. I told him that CR on most windows are abysmal except for certain triple panes. I also pointed out I was disappointed triple pane is not available in larger sizes. My current windows have condensation issue given the fact I do have humidifier (adjusted accordingly based on outside temp but I still have to lower it bit to reduce condensation so it can be really dry inside) Stable humidity is needed for hardwood floors, hardwood furniture and such as well as health-wise.

I can't justify 5-7K more for marginally better windows at least based on performance specs (Imperial LS vs. Pro, well, really Timeless Elite vs. Lotus the specs are pretty close and both offer exact same glass package). The owner is well aware of this and I don't know if he'd be able to give me better pricing. The company has some negative reviews and a quite few BBB complaints as opposed to Zen which has many stellar reviews that should say something. I've done some vetting and met with the owner.

I've spoke with other Soft-Lite dealers locally and they wanted too much for Pro and I did not bother asking about Imperial LS. One Sunrise dealer had decent prices but poor glass package selection. It's pretty frustrating which is why I kind of abandoned it last year and attend to other things.

Digital man I can't send you an email since your email address was removed.


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 Post subject: Re: Input appreciated on couple brands
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:40 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:25 am
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Location: Staten Island New York
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As a Soft-Lite dealer, I can tell you that Soft-Lite's best windows are the Imperial LS and Elements series. Ask your local Zen dealer if they can get you a price on either one.


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