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 Post subject: Re: Replacement windows, I think I know what I should do, but...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:38 am 

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:07 pm
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Curious, why the preference to avoid full screens?


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 Post subject: Re: Replacement windows, I think I know what I should do, but...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:04 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
Posts: 674
Location: New Jersey Window Pro- Northern NJ and Central NJ
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Full screens are a pain to remove and they also " somewhat" obscure the view a little more due to the top sash being screened. A half screen is easier to remove, although i dont know anyone who actually removes their screen. Also, if you want to ventilate the top sash, just push the screen up and it will stay up.
Nothing wrong with head expanders if the opening is out of square. You really can see the head expander all that much once its installed. I agree on foam, much better insulator.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacement windows, I think I know what I should do, but...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:36 am 

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:52 pm
Posts: 1673
Location: SE PA & NJ; CT
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As a home owner i like full screen. As an installer , including the rest of my mechanics, we almost always groan when we see full screens. Often have to remove for the install and then reinstall afterwards.
We all like if head expander is not used. Usually not needed in a wood sash out vinyl pocket window in. If there are drywall return jambs and the window is set inside the drywall return, we will set the window then W&D foam, and at the top rip a leg off the head expander and blind caulk it to the head or use RWD trim.

TheWindowNerd.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacement windows, I think I know what I should do, but...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:22 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:07 pm
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as a homeowner,I like the full screen so I asked for quote from two Okna dealers (one I found from google) and the other referred by Okna when I called.

500, white/white, foam package, internal grids, double installed so I am comparing apples to apples. I also got option dollar amount to go triple.

The quotes were VERY DRAMATICALLY different. You couldn't almost believe the amount different since it's apples to apples, or even apples from the same tree! Many thousands different!

Really like the Okna 500. I might have to take one final look at the Elements, but I think the profile seems slightly less heavy on the Okna. I do like the single lock/tilt mechanism of the Elements, but I like the simpler sill of the Okna (less places for dust/pollen to accumulate if windows are open). Performance of both is essentially a dice roll. Last thing is to check references on previous installs, because that could be a deciding factor as well.

My guess is Okna wouldn't give me the name of the dealer/installer if they weren't happy with them?


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 Post subject: Re: Replacement windows, I think I know what I should do, but...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
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Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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The 500 series is definitely a measurable bit thinner than the Elements series.

Both really good options and you have narrowed it down to a great collection of options.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacement windows, I think I know what I should do, but...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:01 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:07 pm
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Thanks much...I am glad I checked out the Okna...especially after getting what I think is a very good price.

and by measurable bit thinner, you don't mean wall thickness, right? The Okna seemed every bit as well constructed as the Elements to me?

For Okna folks...

if I'm going white/white, I'm just missing the reinforcement and a little bit different profile stepping down from 800 to 500, right? Would the reinforcement be worthwhile if I was doing triple? The 800 also appeared just a tiny bit thicker in frame/sash profile compared to 500.

I'm still torn on two versus three pane. It would be under $1400 to go to 3 pane (and I could do that upcharge no problem), but I am hung up on the drop in SHGC and VT which will be even worse than brochure numbers since I would have grids. I've read that SHGC can be over .32 if AC isn't a big a concern ,to get some solar heat in the winter. The front of the house is west facing, and has 13 of the 21 DH.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacement windows, I think I know what I should do, but...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:05 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:07 pm
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another question...they remove my exterior stops (score and pry) and then reuse. Can Azek (ripped to size) be used for stops? Vinyl windows, and with Azek no painting necessary?


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 Post subject: Re: Replacement windows, I think I know what I should do, but...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:25 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:32 pm
Posts: 856
Location: Delaware, New Jersey, Philadephia Area
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If you're retrofitting Cardco wood double-hung pockets most window guys would be taking off the exterior stops which can be aluminum clad or straight up wood. We remove the with a sawzal. The cut typically isn't a precision machined cut as it doesn't need to be. Most OKNA and Soft-Lite pros would foam the exterior perimeter of the window and hem their aluminum trim coil returns into the accessory grove of the 500 or Elements.

The problem with exterior PVC trim on this is basically the return to the window. There is a certain pocket depth dimension that the 3.25" new window frame sits into if you want it to butt to the interior stops. Anything can be done with enough time and patience, but I'm not sure that you would find a window pro that want to break the normal efficiency of their protocol?

I seem to remember Caradco windows of that era to have interior stops that are part of the master wood frame with the trim casings attached to them, thus removing them isn't fun at all and would require all new interior trim to look right in my opinion due to the cutting.

I like the look of full screens unless the house is already to dark. They're tricky to get in and out though. OKNA makes a super nice full screen but that thing attaches to their frames via means of really neat push tab system that isn't for weak fingers or long finger nails. The Soft-Lite Elements and Imperial LS platforms that have half screens aren't really designed for their screens to be moved to the top sash for extended time as when the 1/2 screen is in the up position a large portion of the screen is still visible through looking out of the bottom sash and is not received well by homeowners.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacement windows, I think I know what I should do, but...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:23 am 

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:07 pm
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I wondered about that, since I've read that interior stops are removed. Can the window be installed from exterior leaving interior stops?

My exterior trim, including slot/groove for full screen seems to be a composite?

Next door did Pella replacements, and down the street did Harvey Classic. Will check out what they did for those installs.

If I'm replacing interior trim, I'm going full frame with nailing flange like I did for kitchen casement.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacement windows, I think I know what I should do, but...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:39 am 

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:07 pm
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Attachment:
20160915_074720.jpg [98.24 KiB]
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Nearly non-existant interior stop (and there is no stop at the top for the upper sash?)

Attachment:
20160915_074231.jpg [66.69 KiB]
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Exterior trim is some sort of composite? The entire window with exteror trim was slid in and nailed?


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 Post subject: Re: Replacement windows, I think I know what I should do, but...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:40 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
Posts: 674
Location: New Jersey Window Pro- Northern NJ and Central NJ
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I can understand you wanting the job done correctly but if you choose a company, you are basically saying you trust them. Looking at various job sites and trying to compare or tell the installation company how to install will probably cause a few issues. I would let the installation pro's you hire deal with what they feel is the best way to install and leave it their discretion.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacement windows, I think I know what I should do, but...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:06 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:32 pm
Posts: 856
Location: Delaware, New Jersey, Philadephia Area
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Full frame option allows many different exterior options with composite trim boards being a popular choice. More costly, and if money were no object most folks would go that way. Looks like the exterior might be aluminum clad? If those interior stops are not just tacked in place I would be performing an outside/in method of retrofitting your wood frames. I'd sawzal off the exterior aluminum stops and install the replacement window from the exterior and cap into the window's accessory groove.

The only thing that gets to be a real pain is when one is trying to hold the capping pieces to a certain depth for the miter joints to work and we typical have regular wood to place a stainless color matched trim nail into the jamb return to, we can't nail into the aluminum cladded exterior frame. One can pre-drill through that aluminum clad but it's pretty heavy gauge extruded aluminum and that nails will then hit hollows. We tension fit the metal with precision measurements and bends and back caulk and clad to the frames as sort of a veneer.

There are other methods but this is one that we have found to be practical and produce nice results that typically will work with most folks budgets.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacement windows, I think I know what I should do, but...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:15 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:07 pm
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Attachment:
only thing.jpg [147.31 KiB]
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There are finish nails in this white composite trim...and that's the only thing holding the window in the house? Garage view. From the other side, there is a gap between the window "interior stop" wood and the jack studs, nothing but the outside nailing holds the window in place, if you tried to remove the white trim, the window comes with it? The trim is the nailing flange in this case?

Attachment:
interior stop.jpg [234.14 KiB]
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This shows interior stop (?) in garage, it's just part of the window. The plastic jamb butts up against it on one side and the "composite" white exterior trim that is also grooved for the full sized screen.

Attachment:
interior stop and casing.jpg [132.94 KiB]
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This shows the interior stop which the casing just overlaps?

Need to discuss the replacement install procedure with the dealer/installer a bit more after inspecting this more closely and understanding what I have. I'm not sure what I expectations should be for a currently 20 year old "compressed" Caradco sill going for the 25+ years which I expect out of a premium vinyl window. And in my old house, I did have to have a sill replaced, but those windows were much more rugged appearing than the wood holding these Caradcos together.

I felt better not knowing anything about windows.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacement windows, I think I know what I should do, but...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:16 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:07 pm
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masterext, good advise...I'm not the expert.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacement windows, I think I know what I should do, but...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:38 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:32 pm
Posts: 856
Location: Delaware, New Jersey, Philadephia Area
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Wood clad windows installed by the builder would have a nailing flange nailed to the sheathing and then the trim board installed over the flange (your case), or the exterior siding veneer just run up to the edge/return of the aluminum window frame (j-channel, stone & mortar, stucco, brick).


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