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 Post subject: New wood trim (interior) bordering new fiberglass windows
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:11 pm 

Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:28 pm
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Hi all...

Need your advice....had full, new fiberglass casement replacement install (full tear-out) on 50-year-old original windows. We were told they would extend some to cover the old paint lines (we observed how much damage is caused by ripping out original wood trim). Nothing specific beyond those words verbally or on written contract. The end result is 5/8inch wider bordering all our new windows, while these wood trim panels no longer match the rest of the home's natural wood width borders around doors and closets, etc. Also some of the wood panels seem to be below QA par...there are knots (one is black) and some black lines and devits, which we are asking to be replaced (on order and have to be stained to match).
Is this acceptable for such an expensive project or do we have the right to ask for the company to make closer match to what existed? Family member is very upset and has cried over not catching them earlier in their install process to halt the work. Covering the paint line to us meant maybe a bit wider than preexisting, not 5/8inch. The contract does not even mention the specifics of this. Verbally, we were told they would "cover the paint lines". :(
Please advise ...thank you


Last edited by CathyChandler on Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New wood trim (interior) bordering new fiberglass windows
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:09 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
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Location: New Jersey Window Pro- Northern NJ and Central NJ
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To be honest, i dont see where the installers are at fault. When doing a full tear out, a bow window, or even a patio door, most installers will use wider trim to cover up any imperfections caused by the installation. This is actually a good thing due to the homeowner not having to do any or very little touch up.
Most contractors choose not to get involved with any painting and its the homeowners responsibility unless specified in writing.
Unless a specific size moulding was stipulated in the contract, its not the fault of your contractor.
If the new trim was egregiously wide then maybe you a valid dispute but there is really nothing the installer did that was wron. 5/8 - 1" is certainly within the realm of normal.
Asking a contractor to remove and replace all the new trim just to prove he is a nice guy is unrealistic. Its a lot of work and im sure he would expect to be paid.


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 Post subject: Re: New wood trim (interior) bordering new fiberglass windows
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:16 am 

Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:28 pm
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We asked the precise measuring, stain-matching person who took two pieces of existing trim to match the new pine wood couple months ago, if everything was going to match, to which he replied yes...He came to the house twice, once to precisely measure the order, and secondly to obtain sample old trim to match the stain to the home's trim. The awning window looks boxed in by wood trim that is wide enough to pass for baseboard trim one would use at base of walls (photo attached).
Expensively priced project that has turned out to be a huge disappointment because of this mismatching to home's general trim. There should be some kind of discounting to the upset this has caused since the trim back to all the windows is cost-prohibitive at this point and the job (done last week) has been paid in full already (was told by installer to pay on full on last day of work, even though last window trim was halted and remains unfinished; also some wood panels have to be replaced due to poor quality).


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 Post subject: Re: New wood trim (interior) bordering new fiberglass windows
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:22 am 

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Saying pic file too big....any way to post picture of trim-finished awning?


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 Post subject: Re: New wood trim (interior) bordering new fiberglass windows
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:57 am 
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You can upload the pictures to one of the free photo hosting sites and then hyperlink into the thread with the "Img" tags.


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 Post subject: Re: New wood trim (interior) bordering new fiberglass windows
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:47 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Pictures would definitely help Cathy. Could be an issue, could just be mismatched expectations. One thing I will say though is that full frame replacements will rarely sit in the exact same place and have the exact same interface (gaps, reveals, paint lines, etc) as the original windows. The wider trim is used frequently to cover that difference with less work for you (painting, drywall patching, etc). Common sizes for casing are 2 1/4 (maybe 2 1/2), and then jumps to 3 or 3 1/4... 5/8 increase in size would not be out of the ordinary when larger trim is discussed. To be clear, I am not vouching for nor against your contractor as there are many variables that are unknown, just sharing information on what is fairly standard practice... Again, some pics would definitely help. Have you discussed with your contractor his/her reasons why the windows were measured and installed in this exact manner? I know it can be tough when emotions are involved, and that goes both ways if the contractor has done his due diligence. That said, sometimes a calm conversation even if it is via email can clear up a lot..


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 Post subject: Re: New wood trim (interior) bordering new fiberglass windows
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:33 pm 

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Image


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 Post subject: Re: New wood trim (interior) bordering new fiberglass windows
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:41 pm 

Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:28 pm
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This trim is 2&7/8 inches, up from preexisting 2&1/4 inch, per contractor...the trim is so wide,
it looks like the covebase one puts on wall/floor junctions. These no longer match natural wood
door trims and closest trims. We were told they would cover paint lines, not damaged drywalls caused by rough
removal of the old trim woodwork. Covering paint lines is a vague statement. The contract only says replace trim;
no specification to width. I hope the foam they fill the damaged pull-out areas is just as good as insulation.
We are to contact the job manager and let him know what we want to do.


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 Post subject: Re: New wood trim (interior) bordering new fiberglass windows
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:12 pm 
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Cathy,

Don't mistake me for being a homer here and as a default, defending the contractor. If you read the forums, you will note there are plenty of situations where the pros on here are critical of the actions of other contractors when it is warranted.

Can trim be removed without damaging the drywall....not really. I can tell you that most of us don't swing the hammer anymore on this forum and while it makes since in the "THEORETICAL" contracting world, the reality is that it never plays out like that. Even when you spend a disproportionate amount of time on trying to spare the wall surfaces or trim, you only postpone the inevitable. Removing trim and trying to cover with similar sized trim when you are talking about tearing out original construction window never happens. Trust me, I have tried and they are usually so nailed off and partially glued to the wall by either caulking or layers of paint, it never works out.

2 7/8" is pretty much the standard in this day and age and most people will actually "value" the larger trim as more of a premium.

From the picture that I do see, the work looks pretty clean.


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 Post subject: Re: New wood trim (interior) bordering new fiberglass windows
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:00 pm 
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Cathy, I'd have to agree with WoW's comments. Everything looks to be as I'd expect. Certainly without personally inspecting the work and knowing all of the situational details that cannot be stated for certain, however this looks more like a situation where some additional communication is the missing ingredient as opposed to anything technically speaking with the installation. It sounds like you plan on discussing your concerns with the contractor and I'd definitely advise that. At the very least, he can give you some insight as to his thought processes and the how and why of what they do.


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 Post subject: Re: New wood trim (interior) bordering new fiberglass windows
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:41 pm 

Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:28 pm
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Do any think this oversized width new trim looks unusual or esthetically displeasing at about 3 inches wide? Also, the stain on this pine does not really match up to all woodtrim in the home; it is lighter.


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 Post subject: Re: New wood trim (interior) bordering new fiberglass windows
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:25 pm 

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Looks like a quality job was done. The trim will darken over time.


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 Post subject: Re: New wood trim (interior) bordering new fiberglass windows
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:42 pm 
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This is why many companies will not do custom stain matching, is it is literally impossible to match. Most homeowners don't realize that they may have pretty substantial variances in stain color due to a variety of factors currently in their home, so matching one piece of window trim will not match all. That said, these are pretty subjective matters. What I will confirm along with the other pros that have weighed in is that this product looks professionally executed and by all of your description, sounds like a pretty typical installation under the given circumstances. None of us can really comment however on the details of your contract or the communication that took place between you and your contractor, so as mentioned above, I'd try to work with them to achieve a finished product that you are happy with, whether or not that comes with some extra costs depending on the aforementioned details.


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 Post subject: Re: New wood trim (interior) bordering new fiberglass windows
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:05 pm 

Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:28 pm
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Thank you to all who took the time to reply to me. I much appreciate your expertise and opinions.

One local contractor friend advised/reiterated that this is what one does in replacements, to
cover paint line and any drywall damages from removal of previous trim. Otherwise, the contract
price would have cost much more for installer company to deal with the drywall zone and paint lines.
I asked him what he would have done differently; he said he would have done same...2&7/8in or 3in
to get a professional-looking result. If contracted for 2&1/4 inch-casings, this contractor friend said
he imagines our price would have been few thousand more to deal with drywall patching/sanding/painting.

Guess my only remaining question is, since it's a concern by family member...does this difference in casing width
(and lighter-looking stains) on the new replacement windows, affect esthetic-appeal of potential home-buyers,
as it obviously differs from the rest of the woodtrimming in the home.

Thanks ahead..


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 Post subject: Re: New wood trim (interior) bordering new fiberglass windows
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:05 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Much like the concerns in general, that will be subjective on a person by person basis. That said, as long as there is a rhyme or reason to the differences I would not suspect it to be much of an issue. The new casing is wider (ie: pricier) so it appears more as an upgrade than a downgrade. As long as the color is not a clash, where it neither complements nor contrasts the other trim I wouldn't find it likely to be an issue... Not only that, but painted woodwork has become increasingly popular lately even here in the midwest (we are a little behind the east coast in that respect), so a potential buyer may envision coming in and painting it all anyway.


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