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 Post subject: sound transmission betwe vinylmax edison, okna 500, long q2?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:05 am 

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:02 am
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looking at window specs, i see technical information for U value, SHGC, etc, but nothing for sound transmission. i'm considering a triple pane Vinylmax Edison versus a double pane Okna 500 for two new cutouts on a wall that faces heavy traffic. the house currently has Long windows Quantum2 or Q2 windows all throughout (26 windows total) installed in 2010, and they seem pretty decent in blocking sound.

not sure anyone will know but thought i'd ask, how do all 3 windows compare with regard to blocking sound?
- triple pane vinylmax edison
- double pane okna 500
- triple pane q2


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 Post subject: Re: sound transmission betwe vinylmax edison, okna 500, long q2?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:00 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Are you talking about replacing the quantums, or are these in addition to? I'd say the Vinylmax would be a downgrade if you are replacing.
As for sound, air flow is a big factor. Tighter window with less air leakage will be quieter. Triple pane vs double pane is a common misconception (with many sales guys saying that TP will make a big difference-- it won't). If you live in normal conditions, a good double OR triple pane window will serve you just fine. If the quantums that you have do the trick, that product or the oknas would be be good. If you have some greater need like a busy street or noisy neighbors, you may want to consider a "sound package" glass which often consists of either laminated glass or offset glazing.


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 Post subject: Re: sound transmission betwe vinylmax edison, okna 500, long q2?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:02 pm 

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the house currently has Long windows Q2's all throughout that the previous owner put in. i have a wall that i'd like to put in 2 new windows which require cutouts, so the idea was to put in Q2's in there to match the rest of the house, or the Vinylmax Edisons or Okna 500s.

just had Long sales guys in here, and their price was a lot more than the vinylmax or oknas. i guess i'm back to deciding between the vinylmax or okna.

vinylmax edison triple pane for $3750 and the contractor handles all the permits
okna 500 double pane for $3850 and i handle all the permits with the city


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 Post subject: Re: sound transmission betwe vinylmax edison, okna 500, long q2?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Oknas all day. No question. The q2's would be worth consideration, but the Vm's are not in the same league as the other two.


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 Post subject: Re: sound transmission betwe vinylmax edison, okna 500, long q2?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:35 pm 

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It would be very unprofessional IMO to have the homeowner handle the permits.


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 Post subject: Re: sound transmission betwe vinylmax edison, okna 500, long q2?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:46 am 
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I can weigh in here as this was my quote and I can provide some background on some of the questions.

nova is a former client and wants to get some additional light in on a side of the home that is devoid of windows.

The glazing (in this case double pane with Low-e) was specified so as to match the current glazing in the windows that have already been replaced (i.e. Long Quantum 2s). I thought it made sense to match the tint and reflectivity of the current windows vs. throwing in a darker (especially when light is the dominant rationale for putting in the windows) triple pane unit that would also be more mirrored from the street.

As far as the permits go, there were not permits indicated on the competitive bid that was submitted for comparison.

The home is inside of a City limits which is inside of a larger county. The OP (nova) did call the city and they instructed him on what the permit walk through process was like.

The reason that I indicated there would be no permits included in our original bid was because of the possible ballooning cost of the permit. I can think of two specific occasions in which wall modifications were a normal walk through process in the county. What wound up happening is that the work was being completed inside of another specific city that had their own permitting process.

In that process they required a set of stamped engineer's drawings and at and additional cost to us of over $700 dollars between the site visit and the drawing preparation.

I don't know of too many projects where a $700 professional fee can easily be absorbed.

The city, in this example, required no such drawings from the homeowner if they were the entity to open the permit.

In the case of this project, the window is on an outside corner and there may be very specific structural questions that the city wants answered with regards to the shearwall (i.e. corner) in which case they may disallow and framing modification. This would, from the standpoint of the contractor, likely require an engineer to way in and sign off on a drawing and incur said expense.

What I recommended to nova was to take pictures of the area and some sketches (I offered to complete the sketches along with framing diagram) to the city permit office and see if they will allow for the modifications.


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 Post subject: Re: sound transmission betwe vinylmax edison, okna 500, long q2?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:23 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:11 am
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That would make sense then. Let me rephrase that, in most instances it would be unprofessional IMO.
The choice is clear , take the superior window with one of the best companies in the business.


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 Post subject: Re: sound transmission betwe vinylmax edison, okna 500, long q2?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:46 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:02 am
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Eric, thanks for clarifying. I sent you an email asking about the drawings you could provide that I could take to the city permit office. Not sure if I should do that first before we sign a contract for the work or how you wanted to handle that? we can probably discuss that through email, this thread was more about which window would provide better sound blocking. the Long quantum 2 windows actually do a decent job of blocking sound, so if the okna is as good or better than the Q2s then the oknas look to be the right choice.


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 Post subject: Re: sound transmission betwe vinylmax edison, okna 500, long q2?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:02 am 
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nova,

I will circle back with you on Monday AM and I can sketch up some drawings for you.

As far as the sound, they should be about the same for a mass and STC standpoint. That being said, where those two windows are going to be will have more exposure to noise than any other two windows in the home.

They have less zero shielding from the trees or landscape.
They are on the first floor (more noise usually felt there than 2nd).
They are on an inside corner of sorts will will effectively "catch" the noise/vibrations.
They will catch the voices and conversational tones of folks walking by.

I want to manage your expectations of the noise that will be heard through those new opens vs. what you are not experiencing now via a solid framed wall being there.

Might not be a terrible idea to think about laminated glass at those two locations to be perfectly hones. That will give you a definite increase in sound attenuation as well as some break-in/theft protection.


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 Post subject: Re: sound transmission betwe vinylmax edison, okna 500, long q2?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:27 am 
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Typically drawings would be produced at your expense as a homeowner, even if they are only preliminary to determine if the project is possible. Not sure of the arrangement that you have worked out with WoW, but I did just want to mention that in the context of the thread for others that may read through. I typically recommend an architect or engineer, although some "designers" are able to provide sufficient plans as well.


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 Post subject: Re: sound transmission betwe vinylmax edison, okna 500, long q2?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:52 am 

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since it's being discussed, i figured i'd mention that the other proposal i mentioned in my original post did include permits. it wasn't written in the proposal that i showed eric, but i confirmed with the contractor that it did include all the necessary permits. Long windows also included them handling the permits. a fourth contractor said he would handle the permits too.

as a homeowner who doesn't have a lot of work done requiring permits, i have no idea who generally handles what, i can only say what other contractors have quoted me. i'm totally fine submitting the permit paperwork too, i guess i just need some assistance in getting all the paperwork together.


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 Post subject: Re: sound transmission betwe vinylmax edison, okna 500, long q2?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:31 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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As todd alluded to, professional companies do indeed handle permits. That said, the basic job permit is all that provision typically covers. Anything needed to get to the permit (Ie: architectural drawings, engineering, review boards, etc) are generally not included in that for obvious reasons. My contracts include "permits" as well, however we do have an allowance built in for that and again, it does not include the ancillary items that in some cases can get into 4 digit $$$ in raw cost.... I don't mean this or my previous comments negatively whatsoever, just explaining the typical process which highlights the fact the WoW is doing a pretty serious solid by you in providing drawings without even having a contract :D


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 Post subject: Re: sound transmission betwe vinylmax edison, okna 500, long q2?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:30 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:02 am
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I know eric amd his team do good work so I'm looking forward to getting nice windows put in. and he rides a motorcycle so he's gotta be cool, right? :)


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 Post subject: Re: sound transmission betwe vinylmax edison, okna 500, long q2?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:34 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:11 am
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That would depend on the bike and what he where's under the chaps?


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 Post subject: Re: sound transmission betwe vinylmax edison, okna 500, long q2?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:27 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:02 am
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i ended up going with Long windows and their Quantum 2 with .17 U-factor rated windows and krypton gas. i signed the paperwork yesterday. in the end, i couldn't get anyone else but Long to return my emails or calls, and just gave up. not having my emails/calls returned was unfathomable especially considering they had provided proposals for the work. the house currently has the exact same Quantum 2 windows throughout (26 windows total) so these two new windows will blend in. the soundproofing of the existing Q2 windows work well, so it should work well on the new windows too. my home office is on the top floor on the same corner where the new windows will go in, and with the windows closed the traffic noise is barely noticeable.


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