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 Post subject: Expert opinions appreciated
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:25 pm 

Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 12:54 pm
Posts: 8
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I am looking for a little input from the several windows experts that are on this board.

The windows searching process gets confusing a lot of times. One point of confusion is when a window can/should be full replacement vs an insert is OK.

I know most of the arguments- the one I am concerned about is window rot.
One guy says 'if there is any rot you should do a full frame replacement'.
Another sales guy says 'we don't need to do a full frame replacement if the rot isn't extensive. We can cut out/replace sill damage if found'.

So, the best I could do is post pictures of the window I'm concerned about. first pic is the window frame. second pic you can see rot in the channel of the window where the cranking mechanism resides. The third is a shot from the outside- not sure if needed, but just shows there is no apparent gaps/damage to the outside trim on the window.

So, is this too much damage to do an insert? Any opinions would be helpful.

Thank you


Attachments:
File comment: Window from outside
p3.jpg [185.44 KiB]
Downloaded 74 times
File comment: damage in window
p2.jpg [212.15 KiB]
Downloaded 77 times
File comment: frame damage
p1.jpg [142.08 KiB]
Downloaded 74 times


Last edited by smd on Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Expert opinions appreciated
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:38 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 249
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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SMD,
Your rot problem is in the window unit itself. I'll say that you have a 98% chance your rough opening is clean without much damage. Do a full frame replacement and make them remove the siding for a proper replacement with nail fin. Don't let them cut it out of the opening and slide the new unit back in the opening. It's obvious you get water there. Have it installed Properly! Good Luck!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Expert opinions appreciated
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:30 am 

Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 12:54 pm
Posts: 8
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Guy wrote:
SMD,
Your rot problem is in the window unit itself. I'll say that you have a 98% chance your rough opening is clean without much damage. Do a full frame replacement and make them remove the siding for a proper replacement with nail fin. Don't let them cut it out of the opening and slide the new unit back in the opening. It's obvious you get water there. Have it installed Properly! Good Luck!!!



Thank you for the input. So to paraphrase, something is going on with existing window frame and water is somehow getting in when it shouldn't? And an insert will just cover up the problem?

A question about full frame replacement and the nail fin. Does this mean that some installers do full frame without a nail fin and some installers do full frame with a nail fin?
Do I need to specifically ask for the nail fin?


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 Post subject: Re: Expert opinions appreciated
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:32 pm
Posts: 851
Location: Delaware, New Jersey, Philadephia Area
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Full frame with flange makes the most sense as vinyl siding is not all that hard to remove and reinstall in most circumstances provided it's not 30-years old and brittle. I've retrofitted those units before with spray foam and accessory groove exterior cladding. One has to be very precise with the capping bends as everything would be tension fit and blind caulked sort of glue cladded on. I much prefer a total rough opening and sheathing/WRB inspection from performing a full frame tear out. Guy is correct in your case as he always is. You want a nailing flange that is installed to modern AAMA Installation Masters standards in regards to pan and flange flashing.

Several of the benefits of the flanged new construction method will be no visible caulking to get dirty over the years, more visible glass, new j-channel that will be probably be feature better miters and water diversion tabs, and the peace of mind of knowing that the windows shouldn't ever give you any issues again.


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 Post subject: Re: Expert opinions appreciated
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:50 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 249
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Mike you're making me blush. Thank you for your kind words my friend.
SMD, you can do a full-Frame replacement with or without a nailing fin. I know Pella has gotten their vinyl non-finned full-frame application approved from the Gods above. If its done that way it with stands our temps here in MN. You will need to specify to your installers that you want them installed that way. This isn't rocket science! This is plain common sense on installing a window to work to its best potential! Short cuts and installers going to fast to earn a buck. Don't get me started!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Expert opinions appreciated
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:12 pm 

Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 12:54 pm
Posts: 8
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Thanks Delaware Mike/Guy.

I got a callback from the sales guy. These are Sunrise windows being sold by a well-reviewed company in the Twin Cities area (not sure if allowed to name it so I won't unless otherwise requested to).

Anyway, he said he talked to the installer. Sorry if I butcher his answer but he basically said on the full frame after they pull it out they do some flashing tape? (I think), and caulking etc. He went on to say the installer indicated they did not remove the siding, which indicates to me there is no nailing fin.

He offered to have the installer guy call me directly so I am awaiting that call. I will take better notes when he calls and relay the information.

This is a well spoken of window company. So what should I do if this company and the other companies I have lined up say they don't do nailing fins on full-frame installs (or worse yet, they don't know when I ask the question). Very frustrating processs :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Expert opinions appreciated
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:14 pm
Posts: 2350
Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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I would ask for a detailed explanation of the installation procedure that they are proposing in writing. The method that Guy and DM proposed above is the best, bar none, and is what I'd do on my own home. The only modification that we do with some regularity would be to cut the siding back and add exterior trim boards over the new nail fin as opposed to r&r'ing all of the panels, but same end result either way... As also alluded to, there are other industry accepted methods, but there can be a large gap between "industry accepted", and best practice. Be prepared for the pricing to reflect that as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Expert opinions appreciated
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:01 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:32 pm
Posts: 851
Location: Delaware, New Jersey, Philadephia Area
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Unrelated to your project in regards to flanged new construction. We did a large Pella job last year on a house with stone and mortar facing. It was a full frame tear out with all new pre-finished interior as part of a Pella promotion. I had my Pella rep come out and confirm with the homeowner about Pella's blessing in regards to not being able to use a nail flange due to the stone/mortar.

We also will do some non flanged new construction units from time to time in which we added either Azek or wood trim boards that are back caulked and capped in a manor that basically makes them like a nail flange once tied into the new window and taped to the sheathing.


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 Post subject: Re: Expert opinions appreciated
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:53 am 

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:52 pm
Posts: 1670
Location: SE PA & NJ; CT
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The pictures are great.
Your rot looks to be from maybe two sources: 1st water infiltrating the sash. not sure on the second but the frazz make me think wood boring insect.
I think you could go either way.
My personal preference would be with full frame as to inspect whats going on under, visible glass size maintance, W&D foam, etc.
I do not see the need for a flanged install , Pella has a tested express method that will work on any window. Keys are retrofitted z flashing above, flashing tape sides and sill, or sill pan..
Do know if Guy has time but you are in his service area.
All the guys who have commented are tops in the business and know their technical stuff.

theWindowNerd


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