Deciding between Milgard Classic or LBL 2000 in Oregon

[pdxman1]

Hi. I have been researching and getting bids for windows and have narrowed my choices down to Milgard Classic and LBL Series 2000. I have two fixed windows and the rest are sliding currently aluminum frame single pane circa 1974, some with storm windows added. Because I want to be sure that I am getting the sound reduction that I want, I have specified 3/16 + 1/8 glass on all the windows. Here are my sizes (inches):

Width height style
120 60 XOX
96 60 XOX
96 48 XOX
36 48 PW
36 48 PW
36 36 XO obscure glass chip
72 36 XO
96 60 XOX
36 36 XO obscure glass chip
48 60 XO
48 60 XO
60 36 XO

I got a bid from the one company I talked to that offers both brands:
Milgard Classic $9700
LBL 2000 $10100

So the cost difference between the two brands is two is pretty small. The Milgard uses the intercept spacer, while the LBL uses the Superspacer. I assume that is why the Milgard has a U-factor of .35 vs. .30 for the LBL (sliders). Because of that, the LBL would qualify for about a $500 credit from the local utility, which offsets its small added cost. Plus it would save a little bit more in energy costs over the years - Advantage LBL.

I am trying to figure out how to compare the two windows from a structural or strength standpoint. The LBL lists a AAMA rating of R-15, while the Milgard lists "structural class" as HS-C35, HS-LC25, and HS-C30 depending upon the exact configuration. Are these numbers even comparable? Since I have some large windows, I want to make sure they will hold up to wind, bird strikes, etc.

In another thread:

lbl is not a bad window, but the testing done on it does not accuratley show wind and air filtration. The weep system is very big, and allows air to flow directly into the house.

I looked at the weep system on both windows and asked the salesperson to compare the two. He thought they were similar, but the LBL has small flaps that cover the weep holes, while the Milgard has a baffle to prevent the wind from blowing straight through. He said that he has not seen problems with either. It is strange that the test numbers would not reflect the reality on the air infiltration. That seems like it would be the easiest thing in the world to test. I can understand that the testing cannot reflect how the window might perform after years of wear, but why wouldn't it reflect the performance of a new window? Has anyone else seen this with LBL or other windows?

I'd probably be fine with either window, but if anyone has any info to help me decide between the two, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

[flygirl]

Your noise issue - what kind of noise? Depending on whether it is low frequency or high frequency, the glazing you mentioned may or may not give you the results you are looking for.

As far as the ratings go - there is a world of difference between an R-15 (residential rating) and a C-35, C-30 and LC-25. C is obviously commercial and LC is light commercial. The Milgard windows are performing about 2X as well as the LbL. The house better be on a flat lot in the valley to take an R-15. Won't really take any kind of exposure, wind sheer, etc. Additionally, I personally don't care for the way the frame pops out to fit the screen on the LbL.

I don't think anyone will ever convince me to make a buying decision based on fractions of hundreds of a measure hoping that sometime before I die I will see the return for the cost difference between the Low E glass, intercept, superspacer argument. Intercept is out of the sight line of glass, superspacer looks like cheap foam just barely out of sight.

Milgard is a strong and growing company. They are innovative forward-thinkers and the undeniable leader in the industry. LbL is fine, they just are what they are and have been for over a decade. Boring.

Anyone know about a new entry door they (Milgard) are offering or are going to be offering? I heard there was a big meeting the other day.

[pdxman1]

Your noise issue - what kind of noise? Depending on whether it is low frequency or high frequency, the glazing you mentioned may or may not give you the results you are looking for.

Thanks for the the reply. I've read everything I could find here and elsewhere on windows and noise control. I don't have a huge noise issue - just trying to keep out the noise of the lawnmowers and neighbor kids. But some of my current windows have storms and I have seen a few comments that new dual pane windows were worse than the old single pane storm combination at noise control. I figure it is cheap insurance to go with the 3/16 + 1/8 glass. Once the windows are in - it will be really expensive to change if I am dissapointed.

[FenEx]

Flygirl: "Milgard is a strong and growing company. They are innovative forward-thinkers and the undeniable leader in the industry."

I would absolutely deny that they are the leader in the industry. "A" leader in the mid-range market perhaps, but certainly not a top-shelf leader in performance, quality, engineering or appearance compared to others that are. Oh... and Low-E glass, gas fills and spacer selection can have a considerable affect on energy bills. The spacer and it's applied seal can also have a tremendous affect on the longevity of the I.G. itself.

[ANOTHER WINDOW GUY]

Something wrong with your #'s, contact your LBL dealer and get an update. That dp is incorrect. And some of the Milgard #'s are misleading.
Milgard uses Super Spacer in their newest window line and talks about how superior it is to Intercept. I think flygirl works for Milgard or hasn't seen Super Spacer correctly applied, it is definitely superior to intercept. And to that FenEx guy your right, and in a meeting with Milgard last week I said to them.....you guys are in the drivers seat to get a foothold on the Midwest market why don't you improve your fiberglass line and offer triple glaze and beef up your product. None of the trees answered.

[randy]

Another Window Guy, I agree with you. Milgard has potential, particularly on their fiberglass line, but after many bad experiences with them, they are going to have to make some significant changes before I would use them again.

Their casements and awnings are pretty good, everything else is poorly designed and built, in my opinion.

Then again, I have yet to see a well rounded fiberglass window. Every manufacturer has cheapened one or two components, and in doing so, compromised the overall quality of the product. It's really unbelievable.
Fiberglass holds great promise, but for now, that's all it is.

[pdxman1]

...

Back to the sound issues for pdxman1 - really why this format is here - to help folks with their window needs...
you're right. The current configuration of a prime window and a storm may actually provide better sound abatement than a new insulated window. That is because of the distance between the two panes of glass....2" of separation is ideal.
Your 3/16x1/8 is a good option. In the easiest terms, anything with a motor is a low frequency noise and is best controlled with mass, or thick glass. High frequency like children's voices, regular speech, etc. is controlled with multiple lites of thin glass. 3/16x1/8 is pretty good for the investment and you're right again about having to perhaps do it later and have glass units changed - that can get expensive!

Hope this has been helpful, even through all the testosterone!

Thank you, yes. That is exacly my thinking on the sound issue.

[pdxman1]

Something wrong with your #'s, contact your LBL dealer and get an update. That dp is incorrect. And some of the Milgard #'s are misleading.
...

DP is the R-15 number? Unfortunately the salesperson I was working with did not seem to be very knowledgable about those ratings. And the LBL website does not even mention them. He gave me a test summary page with all the window ratings. I'm not even sure what to ask for clarification.

[flygirl]

sort of - the R-15 is a structural rating, but the 15 part is about equal to the design pressure - a combination of wind/pressure/rain.