Pro Trim Wrap Question

[PK]

When wrapping windows on houses with wood siding, I usually run a circular saw along the edge of the trim to allow my coil stock neatly fit between the siding and trim. Does anyone have any tips on what to do when a window falls only inches below a sofit and its impossible to run a saw all the way up the side of a window? also how do you handle wooden drip caps? Any other tips would be greatly appreciated. I have no problems when it comes to applying flat casings but when i need to retain a 908 profile, fitting things seems to get hairy. Thanks PK

[Guy]

By using a cutting tool like the Fein Multi-master.
http://www.waltertool.com/multimaster_sys.html
You can cut into places a circular saw or reciprocating saw can't get. It's also great for cutting off stops so you can re-apply them. Otherwise we just wrap everything. I know I've wrapped the upper brickmould tight to the soffit and then caulked the seam at the top. There's no way to cut above the brickmould without severe damage to the soffit. So just butting it tight to the top works out well for us. We always use a double bend (or wrap around) in these places so the wrap stays nice and straight. Single strength gets wavy and loose. If you leave the corners long at the top, you can bend the corner around the side pieces and nail up high in the corners to the outside. You can then place a nail up in the top center or a couple nails if you need. You can then caulk right over your nails and they disappear!

The old wooden drip caps are always a treat. We use a "Brake Buddy" to bend our metal
http://www.mysidingtools.com/servlet/th ... ddy/Detail
These are one of the greatest tools of the trade. We swear by them here. Ounce you figure these out you can do the brickmould bend and leave some excess above the bend. If you let the roller out about two inches you can roll out the brickmould bend and then bend the excess for the drip cap. It's harder to try and explain than it is to do. Other times we usually just cut the drip cap flush to the brickmould and wrap it all as one. We then bend our own drip cap to replace the one we cut and insert it above the window. I'll take some pictures and show you what I mean and post them later. I'm sure W4U has pictures in his archives that show these bends. Hope this makes some sense. Guy

[PK]

Thanks guy, Its only recently that ive been getting people demanding the 908 profile. I am pretty quick just bending the profile i usually bend it 1", 3/4", 3/4", 1" then whatever to the window. the hard part is cutting out 45's so they look neat. Most of the wood drip caps ive come across are so rotted i can just run a utility knife right across the edge. Its almost impossible to get a drip cap up there as im usually dealing with 3" exposure wood clap thats nailed tight as hell.

[PK]

Guy, how do you work the brake buddy? Does it attach to the brake or do you clamp your coil in the brake and drag the brake buddy with your hand? Does it scratch the finish?

[XSleeper]

I've had the brake buddy demonstrated for me, but I have a hard time shelling out that kind of money for something I can do with the metal break. It would be a fun tool to have. Probably time saving as well. But I get paid by the hour. LOL

Anyway, another option where metal meets something like a soffit or dripcap...

Bend a finish trim (use a 3" piece of coil, make a 3/8" hem, then fold that 3/8" hem over on itself again, making a 5/8" "double hem".) Run a bead of caulk first, then apply the finish trim into the caulking, so that water never gets behind. Then a straight piece of coil will slip into the finish trim.

This is what I do on any brick home where the metal will butt up to brick. -see top and side of photo at: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/thexsleep ... m=7ef1.jpg

[PK]

The house im bidding right now has one course of clap between the top of the brickmold and the bottom of the soffit. I like the idea of that small cutting tool though.

[Guy]

PK, the brake buddy is all hand powered. You make your first 90 degree bend and pull it out a couple inches. Then the 90 rides the brake buddy edge as you drag it tight to the metal. You can make the pieces much faster and uniform with it. So the first one looks like the last one. You canalso use it to form soffit ribs. With Osteo Arthritis in my shoulders I give them a break ever chance I can! The cutting tool is the "Cats Meow". It works on my Side Winder and the brake itself. There are some great little gauges for bending angles and multiple cutting. Makes the job go much faster.

[PK]

Nothing like an excuse to go out and buy some new tools!!!!!

[Window4U (IL)]

I usually bend it 1", 3/4", 3/4", 1" then whatever to the window. The hard part is cutting out 45's so they look neat.

On the brickmold bend corners, the only way to make a perfect mitred corner is to have the low and high points of the brickmold bent sides and top meet exactly in the corners. I thought it might be easier to explain if I showed a corner that was not quite perfect. (this photo was taken before halfway through the window being caulked if any of you were that observant)
As you can see, the intersection of 1B and 2B meet perfectly. On the other hand, the intersection of 1A and 2A do not. The top where 1A is was cut 1/8" too short. This results in a small gap in the seam. If you cut them to meet perfectly, the corner will be perfect. The B seam is the one that will really throw things off it it not cut to exactly meet the B seam on the side piece. If you are a little off on the A seams, you can massage the seam down a little to be acceptable. These points need to be followed up from the sides and marked at the corresponding points on the top before you cut the mitre.
Also, if you are using yellow snips to cut your metal, I suggest giving them to the wife for her gardening and getting a pair of 10" red Wiss shears and a pair of green snips to be able to cut both directions. It is impossible to do fine and intricate metalwork with just yellow snips.

On the question of what to do when your saw won't reach all the way up because of a soffit....don't even try. Just notch your aluminum to exactly match the profile of the lap siding. Go over the siding the last couple inches. When you caulk up the sides you will not be able to tell where the caulking goes into the saw kerf and where you notched it. Much easier and no downside.

[PK]

Thank you that really helped. I would love to see more pics if you got them. I'm one of those wierdos who loves to go up and inspect the trim work on good window and siding jobs. Thats pretty much how I learned.

[XSleeper]

The top where 1A is was cut 1/8" too short. This results in a small gap in the seam. If you cut them to meet perfectly, the corner will be perfect.

Since the miter starts at the outside corner and ends at the inside corner, I would suggest that the reason that the two do not line up is because the 1B-1A bend is 1/16 to 1/8" wider than the 2B-2A bend. Metal break operator error.

It is impossible to do fine and intricate metalwork with just yellow snips.

Wow, I must be able to do the impossible!

Actually, the yellow Pro Snips work much better than the yellow Wiss, IMO. I can do excellent metalwork, have been doing it for 15+ years, and mainly use the yellow snips. You never cut a miter with snips or it will look like the one pictured. (no offense). I always score miters with a knife and straightedge and bend them back to break them off. It curls the overlapping metal slightly toward the piece being lapped, creating a tighter seam.

[Window4U (IL)]

by xsleeper
Since the miter starts at the outside corner and ends at the inside corner, I would suggest that the reason that the two do not line up is because the 1B-1A bend is 1/16 to 1/8" wider than the 2B-2A bend. Metal break operator error.

Sorry, but you are dead wrong.The problem is that the cut was not made through the two points that intersect the high and low points. The bends are identical. I can't believe you even said that if you have ever done this type wrapping. Even disimilar profiles of the same depth can be matched by crossing these two points.

As far as scoring the back of a brickmold mitre.... While any installer who cares about what his work looks like will score the back of a flat mitre, brickmold capping still takes making cuts down the length of the piece on A and B to the exact point where the score is at so that the 3 pieces can be snapped off. Cutting just a little too far with the lateral cut can make it look much worse than using very sharp left and right shears cut from the right direction and the proper side. I have found that the way I cut brickmold mitres is faster and indistinguishable from a good job of scoring. Plus, scoring the 3 areas of the back of a brickmold mitre with a knife for most installers is very difficult up on a ladder.

Since you are insinuating that you do such superior wrapping by your knocks to my installer's work, please post some close up photos and we can compare. I'll post some of my own work too .
Sounds real fun.
I scoured 13,000 photos on my computer to find one semi-bad corner to make an example of on this post. I won't have to do that when we compare.
Post that one again with the uncovered lintel and the old caulk left all over the brick first. That's a good one. (no offense)

[XSleeper]

sheesh, I don't think I care to reply to you. You sound like you already know it all. When I said no offense, I meant it.

[Window4U (IL)]

Actually, the reason I replied the way I did was because of your condescending post. I didn't tear your wrapping pictures apart when you posted them in the past because of professional courtesy, even though it would have been an easy thing to do.
You could have responded with a civil discussion or a question, but instead made comments questioning my competence on both bending and cutting. I'd say that puts you in the know it all category, not me.

[XSleeper]

Ok, I'll bite. First of all, I thought you said this was your installer's work, not yours. To say that I was "questioning your competance" is quite an exaggeration. I appologize if my post came off that way, and I'm sorry that you were quick to take offense.

Your statement that you can't do fine work with yellow snips is plain inaccurate. (one of the main reasons I even spoke up... sorry- I'll keep my trap shut next time)

And anyone who has used a metal break as long as I have knows a thing or two, so what you see as arrogance might just be a little experience talking so I'd thank you for a little benefit of the doubt. I also realize that I can still pick up tips from others, so don't think that I'm condescending because you are reading too much into my post and assuming I have bad intentions, which I do not.

Also, are you saying that it is not possible that the bend I referred to could be a little wider? Because that would certainly lead to exactly the look in the picture, as any experienced installer would know. It's just like a casing miter- if the casing profiles don't match, the two 45's won't meet up, which is my only point. It's an obvious possibility, which is why I mentioned it. When I cut miters on coil, they are 45's (a straight line from the outside corner to the inside corner), not zig zigs, which seems to be what you suggest to fix the illustration. That would certainly work.

My point with using tin snips on miters was not to bash your work (or others) but to highlight the fact that tin snips often can leave a ragged edge or turn up the coil if you aren't careful, are cutting the wrong direction, or should be using a red handle snips as you mention. That's the only reason I mention that I use a knife to score the miter face and bend it back. I feel it results in a cleaner miter and I think I'm entitled to an opinion.

Why you feel like you need to mention one of my illustrations indicates to me the degree to which you have been offended by my comments, so again, I appologize. Feeling attacked must make you feel obligated to attack me. Sorry you feel that way. I don't work that way with either customers or other contractors. I also don't openly criticize other people's work. You posted the pic of an obviously less than ideal wrap job. So apparently you are the only one that can comment on it?? I was merely adding an observation. Please don't be so uptight about it. We all know that it's not a representation of your average work.

In "my illustration" that you refer to, you're eye is apparently drawn to only 2 things- the lentil and the caulking. If you'll notice the wrap job, it's an excellent example of a flawless wrap job. No one in my area wraps the steel lentils, so I can't even respond to that. I have never ever wrapped a lentil. Regarding the caulking, you wouldn't believe how those old windows were smeared up. Maybe I could have made a flap to cover the caulking. That must be what your crews do?