Alside Sheffiled VS Simonton Prism

[kifisia]

I have an estimate from Window World for their Comfortworld 6000 which I was told is the Alside Sheffield. Or is it not? Someone wrote here that is is an AWS window and not an Alside?

I have another estimate from someone who prefers the Simonton Prism to the Alside Sheffield and will install either one for me for almost the same price. This contractor praises the Simonton's foam. The Alside Sheffield does not have foam and it will be caulked around. The foam provides a better seal I suppose. Of course the Simonton is not sleel reinforced. Are steal reinforced windows really necessary? I personally want a bit of steel if i can get my hands on it for the same price as plastic, wouldn't you? This contractor does not want any money down and will receive payment upon full completion of the job.

I am getting 16 double hungs, 2 picture windows, 1 slider and 1 hopper, removal of 22 existing windows and storm windows, removal of an awning, and installation of interior casing for the new slider (which is going to replace a picture and two double hungs) All Low E/Argon and either in the Sheffiled or the Prism price quoted $7000.

This is in Northern Virginia. Any suggestions/opinions would be greatly apprciated.

[InfoSponge]

WindowWorld here can order any model in the Alside line, so your quote might be for the UltraMax (model 0601) or Sheffleld (model 0501), though the prices should be about the same for both. WindowWorld also claims to have relationships with other manufacturers, and the franchises can choose who to order from, so you'll need to ask your salesperson. Most people here would recommend you check into their installation practices/performance, check with the BBB, check a reference or two, and verify what extra charges will apply, such as capping/wrapping.

If you are talking about foam wrap around the window, both Alside and Simonton can offer that (I've personally seen it on both). Even with the foam wrap, caulk will also be used.

Some people will suggest the reinforcement for extra stability and security, since then the lock can screw into metal. I can buy the stability argument, but I'm not sure that reinforcement helps security all that much, since any crook can break double-strength glass with a hammer and then open your window from the outside. Most of the Simonton windows offer meeting rail reinforcement as an option as indicated at http://www.simonton.com under the options for each line.

Simonton makes 3 lines of Prism windows, so be sure you know which one you are getting and verify it meets your needs. Someone else would know more about the differences in the 3 lines.

[kifisia]

Thank you for your reply. I forgot to mention that The Simonton Prism was on which I was quoted is the Platinum. Also both quotes include capping/wrapping. (I always try to compare apples to apples)

I contacted my sales rep from WW and confirmed that foam does come with their window. You were right. The rep from the other company said that it did not. I also confirmed that Alside makes their windows and that the one on which I was quoted is the Sheffield.

The question still remains... All other things equal, is either one of the better? and is this a decent price for the number of windows I am getting?

[InfoSponge]

I don't know enough about the Prism Platinum to compare them in detail for you, but I believe it is similar to the 5500 (with minor glass differences). I can say I did slightly prefer the design/look of the Simonton 5500 to the Alside Sheffield, when I looked, but not by a huge margin and the energy performance is similar when configured the same. As for the price, $350 per window seems very reasonable for good quality mid-range vinyl windows considering the installation/removal tasks involved. The "best one" may come down to who does the better job installing them, so go view and talk to a couple of recent references similar to your home with the same line of windows. I was a bit hesitant at first to actually track down references and look at the windows, but the home owners were very happy to help and a good source of information in my case.

[Window4U (IL)]

I would vote for the Prism Platinum. I would also do an upgrade to superspacer if it were me.

[kifisia]

I read about the superspacer. I live in Northern Virginia. Do you think the energy savings would justify the extra cost? And is there any other window that you would recommend in the same price range and quality?

Many thanks for everyone's time to respond.

[InfoSponge]

I think it would be impossible for anyone here to say that adding SuperSpacer to your windows will pay back in energy savings, without more info. If the main energy hogs in your home are something other than windows - I'd guess not. Even if your main problem is inefficient windows, maybe not then if you are an average homeowner staying in the home for only a few years.

There are professionals that can do detailed home simulations, and you could give it a rough shot yourself with a free program like RESFEN, but I doubt either method is going to be accurate to within a couple of % points the majority of the time, and I think you can safely assume your SuperSpacer savings on your energy bill will be a very small percentage of your total bills (especially in the short term, assuming functional seals).

If you must, do a savings equation for your case, but customize the numbers appropriately. Getting some of the numbers will be difficult or near impossible to estimate without professional help. The 1% savings for adding SS is just a random guess. Only a professional could estimate that very well.

15 Windows * $30 per super spacer = $450. Then add to the upfront $450 by whatever increase in value you would expect by instead investing the $450 in your preferred investment and paying for that potential 1% SuperSpacer savings out of your pocket instead.

6 remaining years in home, save 1% per year of avg $3000 utilities due to super spacer = $180. Adjust for current/increasing costs. Then add in the extra comfort and possible time savings of knowing that seal failure is less likely with SS, so you might have fewer warranty issues to deal with. Is that worth something to you? Maybe more the the original upfront cost?

I added a SuperSpacer option for my own home. For one I was remodeling to sell, I did not. If you can aford it, consider it. If not, don't sweat it, in my opinion. Disclaimer: I'm not a window Pro, just offering an opinion.

[Window4U (IL)]

You don't buy superspacer with the thought to save enough money to "pay for itself" with energy savings. That misses the whole point of the product.

You buy superspacer because it will give you a longer lasting Insulated Glass unit, it will help retard gas loss over many other systems, and it will help to prevent condensation near the edge of the glass.
The temperature near the edge can be as much as 16 degrees higher at the glass edge using superspacer over metal spacers, which results in a much higher CRF.
If it is available and they don't try to gouge you on the cost, then buy it because it makes your windows better....period.

[kifisia]

Many thanks for your repsonses. Very good information from everyone.

A few words about where I stand:

The contractor/owner who prefered to install the Simonton Prism Platinum has not gotten back to me (it's been 2 days) to answer the question he was going to "research". that is, i had told him that i would like to get regular double panes (not low E) for the basement(i only have 5 windows down there) and use that money to put grids on some of the ones upstairs which would be Low E. He was claiming that they all "come" low E. Well they don't. The factory will make whatever you want them to make. When I told him that WW will give me whatever I wanted, he said he'd look into it. He has not called back. Too bad. I liked it, and he actually would have gotten the job, over Window World. Maybe he will call.. But I pay close attention to such "details". And he has already lost some brownie points. He also claimed that the Simonton window came with foam but the Alside Sheffield did not. WW confirmed that the Sheffield does come with 1/2 inch of foam around it. Gone another brownie point..

The Window World salesman in the meantime, had also given me an estimate for siding which matched the lowest estimate I had by someone else. Two days ago, I had asked him to find out and let me know what the differences are between the Alside Sheffield and the WW Comfort World 4000 which Alside manufactures for WW. Because he said there ARE differences. I wanted to know exactly what those differences were. He did not call back. I called him yesterday in the morning. Left a message. No call back. I called again in the evening. He did not mention anything about the question I had asked. I told him I was ready to proceed with the siding job, but not the window job yet. He said when you are ready to sign both let me know and I will come over. I told him I will not sign for both. First the siding, then the windows. He said, he will check his schedule and call me back so that he can fit me in...

Contractors out there, please tell me if I am wrong, but frankly this is not the way I would do business. Both these guys have lost my faith in them by not communicating back to me soon enough. And the WW guy lost it when he not only failed to answer my question, but proceeded to tell me that he will check his schedule and call me back.. Obviously he wanted either both contracts or none. He is getting none.

I have learned a lot and keep learning more and more as I read through these notes you wonderful people leave here.

So off I go this weekend to visit my Schuco dealer, here in Fairfax to check out them fabulous sturdy Schucos which I have yet to see. Maybe the Prism guy will call back..maybe the WW guy will call back.. for me, a bit too late. If a salesman/owner cannot get back to the customer in a timely manner before a contract is signed, it does not say much about how things will run afterwards.

Again, thank you all for your valuable input.

[Window4U (IL)]

He was claiming that they(Simonton) all "come" low E.

He is correct. When I occasionally buy Simonton Prism Platinum's from Norandex, they come standard with low-e /argon. Granted, you can make a special request to drop it off, but it still comes as a standard feature. I've never dropped it off before so I don't know if they drop the price any or not. Either way, I wouldn't expect much $ off. I've actually had suppliers charge me more to drop a standard feature.

[kifisia]

I forgot to to mention that the Prism guy was supposed to check with Alside to see if the Sheffield will come without Low E. Because personally after seeing both the Prism Platinum and the WW Comfort 4000 (Sheffield) I liked the Sheffield better and he told me that he would install either one for the same price. (I call him the Prism guy because he prefered the Prism.) But he would put either one in my house. If Alside can make the Sheffield without Low E for WW why wouldn't they make it for him?

Also, since WW lists prices separately on their contract for everything, with them LOW E/Argon package costs an extra $45 per window. Grids are $39 per window extra. Which is why I was trying to substitute some Low E for grids.

[Window4U (IL)]

I forgot to to mention that the Prism guy was supposed to check with Alside to see if the Sheffield will come without Low E. Because personally after seeing both the Prism Platinum and the WW Comfort 4000 (Sheffield) I liked the Sheffield better and he told me that he would install either one for the same price. (I call him the Prism guy because he prefered the Prism.) But he would put either one in my house. If Alside can make the Sheffield without Low E for WW why wouldn't they make it for him?

Also, since WW lists prices separately on their contract for everything, with them LOW E/Argon package costs an extra $45 per window. Grids are $39 per window extra. Which is why I was trying to substitute some Low E for grids.

Ok, first...I think you are making a mistake with your choice. I have more than once explained the poor frame design of the Sheffield and Ultamaxx, so my position is no surprise. But, that is your choice so I'll respect that.

You have to understand that WW deals direct with Alside, and uses them for their nationwide $189 special which has no low-e. Once they hook you with their advertising and get into their home, they then upgrade you on a better window, and make their extra profit money on you with options such as low-e, argon, grids, screens, colors, wrapping the exterior, hauling the old windows away, etc.

On the other hand, a normal contractor will get his windows from a supply house such as Alside or Norandex to name a couple. These supply houses are trying to lure as many contractors as possible to use their windows. Because of this, they work deals with the factories to supply windows as an attractive package for the contractor, which usually includes free low-e/argon.
This is why the WW guy (who has charged you extra for low-e) says he can save you money by dropping low-e, while the other contractor says it comes with it. I hope this gives you some insight. The contractor who is saying it comes with low-e is not being dishonest. It is just the package they supply him with. You will probably not be able to drop low-e and substitute grids with him, because he pays nothing for the low-e.

[randy]

Window4U, while I agree that a pocket sill is a poor design, like the UltraMaxx utilizes, the Sheffield is a really stout window. I had been selling quite a few of the Simonton 5500 windows but began to see too many problems such as bowed sashes and frames as well as scratched glass.

Granted, these were manufacturer issues, and all of the products came from their Oklahoma plant, not longevity issues, however, I think the Alside Sheffield is a stronger window design and may ultimately hold up better here in hotter climates due to the beefier frame design.

The concerns of people in Northern climates are different than the concerns of people in Southern climates many times. For instance, here in Houston homeowners seldom, if ever, open their windows. Therefore the lifting rail/glazing bead design of the Sheffield is not a major concern. The strength and rigidity of the vinyl frame and it's ability to avoid distortion during our hot and humid summer months is of paramount importance.

As you and I have discussed this issue previously, I wanted to make this post for homeowners who may not have thought about the differences between the needs of homeowners in the North and homeowners in the South. I think we agree on this; homeowners should first select a contractor that they trust and feel confident with, since installation is far more important than window selection. A good contractor can then help guide the homeowner to a quality product.

[kifisia]

Again THANKS for the insight. Now I understand why my "prism" guy could not swap Low E for grids. I think everyone should come to this board and "study" windows 101 or maybe windows 701... before taking the plunge.

Of course now, I am even more confused about Sheffield vs. Prism ..

[homeowner]

kifisia, im not sure id be upset with these guys not getting back quickly as this is the busy time. i recently had my windows installed and those guys said things were really moving.

also, the sheffield/ultramaxx window is the 6000, the 4000 is a lesser alside window. i never see complaints about the sheffield til its connected to ww. i never got a negative response about the sheffield until i said i was getting it through ww.

many here talk about ww switch and bait. i dont know if this has been done or not, but you have talked to them, they were the only company i talked to who never once changed their price. their form tells every window and option $ in black and white. i at first wanted tint. my salesman talked me out of that. he didnt have to. i knew what window i wanted, so i immediately upgraded to the 6000. until i made clear i knew what i wanted, he tried to get me to stay with the 4000 because he thought it was good enough. there was never pressure to spend more, just the opposite. also, these windows are not made for ww, they simply order alsides. the only place it says comfortworld is on the wrapper. i decided on this window before i ever went to ww. my installers also sell windows, they told me they couldnt touch this window at the price i paid.

btw, it has rained almost everyday since they were installed. 2 nights ago, we had tornadic weather, hard sideways rain with 70 mph winds. im glad for the test, and narry a problem. until the hail came straight against the house, it was surreal, it was like watching a silent storm. im more than happy! good luck.