"Best Buys" For the Deep South

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Alacoyote
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Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:50 pm
Location: Alabama

"Best Buys" For the Deep South

#1 Post by Alacoyote »

And I thought buying a mattress was confusing . . .

I've begun the research process for replacing 21 DH windows (ranging from 32" x 37.5" to 36" x 72") and a single half-circle geometric. I'm in the "Deep South" and so heat tolerance and effectiveness far outweigh cold-weather performance.

While I'm not independently wealthy, I do realize that window replacement is an important and significant investment, both in terms of initial financial outlay and future maintenance/replacement/repair costs. Given the value of our home and the likelihood that we won't be in it for the rest of our lives (i.e. another 30-40 years), I cannot justify expending well in excess of $10,000 for these windows.

I have reviewed many of the posts and replies on this forum since my research began and appreciate everything that was said (and in some cases, not said). And, while I am certainly more educated about replacement windows (which has seemed almost shocking to the sales reps I have spoken to), I'm still uncertain about the best choices for me.


Can a few experienced people (whether industry pros or consumers) provide a handful of recommendations (by Mfr. and Model/Series) of "mid-grade" or better windows that would meet my needs (assuming, as I've learned, that the installation quality is comparable)?

Alacoyote

randy
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#2 Post by randy »

Alside Sheffield
Simonton 5500

Chances are, the Schuco windows are not available in your area, and this is just as well. Both of the windows I have listed can be mid grade, or with a few upgrades, high end. Good luck to you.

Alacoyote
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:50 pm
Location: Alabama

"Best Buys" for the Deep South

#3 Post by Alacoyote »

Thank you, Randy. Your two suggestions were the two windows that I had narrowed my search down to.

You're right about the Shucos; I've not found anyone in this area who handles them. Based on other posts I've read, I'm guessing they would have been out of my price range, anyway.

The Alside Sheffield is sold in our area through the oft-maligned Window World as the Comfortworld 6000. I've been given a quote of about $6800 for these 21 DH plus the half-circle geometric, all with LoE + Argon, 13 + the geometric with grids, all wrapped/capped. I'm waiting on a quote for the Simonton 5500 comparably equipped but expect it to be closer to $9000.

If you will indulge me, three questions:

1. Do you think the Simonton window is worth the extra couple thousand dollars?

2. Is the Superspacer upgrade worth the investment? (I've seen mixed views on this subject)

3. Alternatively, as I see from your website that you're in the business, do you know any contractors in the Birmingham, AL area that you can recommend for installing either of these windows?

randy
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#4 Post by randy »

No I don't think the Simonton 5500 windows are worth more than the Alside Sheffield, however, I am also not a fan of Window World. The installation is often poor and sometimes very poor.

I do like the Super Spacer upgrade, but it is not critical. If it breaks the budget, forget about it without worrying.

Alside should be able to give me a dealer in Birmingham that I can give you. I will contact Alside on Monday and reply once I have someone for you.

Alacoyote
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Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:50 pm
Location: Alabama

"Best Buys" for the Deep South

#5 Post by Alacoyote »

Thank you again, Randy. It's refreshing to receive such a prompt and to-the-point response. :)

I was viewing the Tim Johnson discussion board when I received your response. I saw that you recommended the Superspacer and reinforced meeting rail for the Simonton 5500 on one of your posts there, so I was pleasantly surprised at your candor about the value of the Superspacer upgrade. I also found that Havco Distributors in Pelham, AL (close to where I live) carries Alside products, so that may be the company you're referred to when you check tomorrow.

Having seen the Sheffield sample at the WW showroom, it is a much "beefier" frame than the Excalibur (Comfortworld 4000) that they push much more heavily. But at $20 more per window, it seems a no-brainer to go with the Sheffield. However, the Sheffield profile appears to reduce the visible glass portion of the window more than the slimmer Excalibur, the Simonton 5500 and others. In your experience, have customers been dissatisfied with this effect?

One last (?) question: Because I don't know any contractors personally, and given that installation is the number one priority, any advice on the best way to identify a reputable contractor?

Bill
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#6 Post by Bill »

Stay away from the Excalibur it has a thin look to it's framing because it's just that a light weight unit. It also has one of the worst interlock designs I have seen with a large bushy wool pile felt at the ends of the interlock.

Compared to most of the windows out there the Sheffield is pretty good but I chose to sell the Simonton because of how the lift rail on the Alside Sheffield and Ultra Max is part of the glazing bead and I have had problems with that design in the past. I also don’t like the construction of the sill on both windows.

Shame on Window World for pushing the Excalibur over the Sheffield; I think they actually loose money on the upgrade to Sheffield if it’s only $20.00

I like the Simonton 5500 better but I agree with Randy that the 5500 should be about = in price. I do think the merits of Super Spacer should be considered but again the Intercept spacer is decent.

Bill
Uneeda Window of N.J.

randy
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#7 Post by randy »

While their are things I like better about the Simonton 5500 (lift rail & sill design), for homeowners in the South, who rarely open their windows at all, the Sheffield is my choice for one big reason.

1) DP rating of a Simonton 5500 double hung = DP 20 - 25
DP rating of an Alside Sheffield = DP 60

Of course the Simonton 5500 can be upgraded to a DP-50, but it is an additional charge. The Alside Sheffield is a DP-60 baseline. For homeowners in the South who have to contend with hurricanes and tropical storms, it is a no-brainer.

Yes the Sheffield has thicker frames, as does the Simonton 5500. As a general rule, the thicker the vinyl profiles the heavier and stronger the window. Narrow vinyl windows may allow for more glass, but they are usually flimsy frames that should be avoided, especially in regions where the heat is extreme.

Since 95% of the contributors to this board are Yankees, the opinions expressed here often don't apply to homeowners in the South. While homeowners in the North are extremely concerned about U-Values and triple pane glass units, down here we are more focused on the SHGC and air leakage ratings.

The lift rail/glazing bead combo is a bad design, I'll admit, but here in Houston, homeowners might open their windows three or four times per year at the max, so it doesn't become an issue. I just assume that Birmingham, AL is similar.

As to the Super Spacer, it typically adds about $30.00 per window, and if you can afford it, it's a good upgrade. If not, the intercept spacer is fine for a mid grade window.

As to installation, try to find an AAMA certified installer if possible. This will at least let you know that they care enough about their work to learn the latest and best installation techniques.

InfoSponge
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#8 Post by InfoSponge »

Here is some double hung window data I collected:

36x60 Simonton 5500: DP50+
36x60 Alside Sheffield: DP60

40x64 Simonton 5500: DP50
40x64 Alside Sheffield: DP40

52x71 Simonton 5500: DP35+
52x71 Alside Sheffield: DP25

Are we looking at different data, or am I reading things wrong? My local distributor said that Simonton does not offer reinforcement on the 5500 double-hungs. They may be wrong, but I lean toward beliving them because they called the regional rep while I was there because ePops wouldn't allow them to select it as an option on the order. So, I believe the above Simonton numbers are for non-reinforced sashes, but I'm not certain since the web site says the option does exist. Anyone know?

References:
http://www.simonton.com/homeowner/produ ... duct_id=41
http://www.alsidewindows.net/Calc/U501.xls

Oberon
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DP data

#9 Post by Oberon »

Not saying that DP data isn't important, it certainly can be, but like comparing STC data for sound attenuation it can be misleading.

Taking a look at InfoSponge's numbers, it becomes obvious that larger glass surfaces have lower DP ratings (duh!)...

But also as windows approach square, DP rating goes lower as well. These are not simple statistical comparisons, size and aspect ratio are both significant contributors to DP ratings.

What is a DP rating? Simply put it is the rated ability to survive a wind gust. But looking at a DP rating doesn't really give the consumer much information about overall window performance.

DP ratings are established by testing the window to pressures equal to 1.5 times the DP requirement. In other words, if a window is rated to DP40, then it is actually tested to 60psf. If a window is rated to DP20, then it is tested to 30psf.

One might assume that there is a direct linear correlation between DP rating and windspeed. One might also assume that a DP of 40 is twice as “goodâ€

Alacoyote
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Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:50 pm
Location: Alabama

"Best Buys" For the Deep South

#10 Post by Alacoyote »

Thank you, gentleman. I know Randy wasn't disparaging the "Yankees" who are posting on this site but he's right about the difference in window-opening frequency. I was born and raised in West Virginia, where we had plenty of opportunities to open our windows throughout the Spring and Fall and even many times during the Summer. In Birmingham, like Houston, we're lucky to be able to open them a week or two in the Spring and Fall before it's either too hot or too cold (or rainy) to do so. Thus, heat tolerance and effectiveness are far more important.

I'd already given up on the Excalibur due to it's lightweight design, concerned that it would indeed not fair too well in the heat (we've already been in the mid-90's the last two weeks and Summer hasn't officially begun . . . :( ).

Hurricanes, or more frequently straight-line wind and thunderstorms, are also a significant concern around here, so the DP factor is important.

Randy, thanks for the tip on choosing a contractor. The AAMA website lists a number of certified installers in my area. I noticed that there is also an AWDI certification. Is this a legit certification and how does it compare to the AAMA certification?

randy
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#11 Post by randy »

The installers on this site could answer the last question better than I, but my understanding is that the AAMA certification is more legitimate.

The Yankee term was friendly, no insult intended.

Alacoyote
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Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:50 pm
Location: Alabama

"Best Buys" For the Deep South

#12 Post by Alacoyote »

I know you were using the term in a friendly manner but just wanted to be sure no one took offense unnecessarily. Ever since the "War of Northern Aggression," you can't be too careful (just kidding guys but, living in Alabama, there are still a few folks here who are having trouble moving on after 140 years).

Well, I'm headed home for another round of sales pitches and estimates. Hope to be able to make a decision and locate a reputable contractor by the end of the week. Otherwise (and perhaps regardless), it'll be the Fall before everything gets done!

Bill
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#13 Post by Bill »

Infosponge:

All Simonton double hung & sliding windows are available with metal sash reinforcement. Your distributor may have been trying to add it to a picture window or casement or their EPOPS program is giving them trouble.

From what I understand water infiltration is a component of a windows DP rating. Take for instance a Simonton 5500 double hung 30â€

randy
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#14 Post by randy »

Whenever I have used the EPOPS system, the standard DH 5500 shows a DP20 - DP25 rating, and when the sash reinforcement is added, the DP rating jumps to DP50. I haven't seen anything about the plug, but you would know more than I about Simonton windows Bill.

My understanding is that the basic Simonton 5500 does not come with sash reinforcement however, and that is a drawback to the window, in my opinion.

rtbcats
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Best Buys for the Deep South

#15 Post by rtbcats »

I live in the Memphis, TN area. I am considering replacing some or all of the windows in my 22 year old house. You asked about replacement windows specifically recommended for the South. I am curious on what brand you decided on, any problems/ issues that you may have experienced. --Rhonda

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