Hi,
I've been reading the posts on this board for two or three weeks. Very helpful.
I live in San Diego, Ca. We're in the process of getting quotes for dual pane vinyl windows. So far we're looking at Milgard (both Classic and Styleline) and Simonton (7300/7500).
First Question - One of the companies who gave us a Milgard quote, and is supposed to be quite reputable around here, said they use a low expanding foam for insulation when they do their installs. I verified that they have had this approved by Milgard. It still concerns me. Everything I have read has said to never use foam with vinyl windows. I'm also wanting to understand why there would be gaps large enough to require. it Anyone have any comments on this?
Second Question - I just spoke with someone who had Simonton windows installed a year and a half ago by another company we got a quote from. She wasn't too technically knowledgeable so it was hard to get much information from her. She did tell me that when it rained recently she discovered water in the window tracks inside the house. She called the company out that did her installation and they told her this was normal. They said the water comes in and goes back out. This sounds pretty strange to me. I don't think I'd accept this explanation. Is this really normal? She also said she has noticed no increased energy efficiency with the new windows. (She had crappy single panes before.) She said she thinks she didn't get Low-E so that might be part of the reason. Could the rest of the reason be because the install was botched and air is also coming in from the same place as the water?
Thank you.
Lisa
Installation and water questions
-
InfoSponge
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:25 am
Low expansion foam that is made for windows and doors should be fine. It cures soft/spongy and won't pinch your window frames, but still seals the gap nicely. I used it on my windows where there were some very small gaps above the frame that we didn't know were there until the house trim was removed. In another instance the hole the window was to go into wasn't completely at a right angle, and in a third case, the brick veneer was uneven on one side and the window had to be ordered a tiny bit smaller so it would still fit into the hole without chipping away at a couple of bricks. I'm sure there other other reasons for gaps, but they can happen. I think the bad reputation of the classic hard-curing expanding foams is one thing preventing people from using the newer window-safe foams.
For the Simonton windows, are you talking about a horizontal slider track? If so, water can and does get in there but it should drain/dry out eventually. Remember that half of one track is completely open to the elements! I've never had significant water visible with the window closed, since the very bottom of the tracks are hidden. The weep/drain holes are covered by a flap and may let a tiny bit of air in but not too much unless the wind is blowing enough to raise the flaps or the flaps are not fitting normally. It isn't some advanced airtight flap, just a cap of vinyl hinged at the top. I'd guess more air comes through the weatherstripping on the top/bottom of the sash and through the tracks themselves than through the weep holes. The extreme left/right sash edges have tight bulb seals and I don't expect any problems there. In general, sliders (except maybe the inline Schuco?) aren't quite as airtight as other window types such as double hungs, casements, etc.
The Simonton double-hung windows I've seen have a bulb seal at the bottom of the lower sash, and that doesn't seem to let water (or air) past very easily. It also has a sloped sill to help with drainage. But, I've found the slider screens seal at the corners much better then the double-hungs, so there are trade offs with each design. All of this said, the Simonton windows in California are slightly different models compared to the ones we have here, so you might verify what I'm saying.
As for your contact/reference - I don't know why anyone who knows the advantages of LowE wouldn't get it for their home. For the price, I think it is a no-brainer to significantly improve window performance, unless you live in some utopia where is is 70F every day/night. If so, let me know where!
For the Simonton windows, are you talking about a horizontal slider track? If so, water can and does get in there but it should drain/dry out eventually. Remember that half of one track is completely open to the elements! I've never had significant water visible with the window closed, since the very bottom of the tracks are hidden. The weep/drain holes are covered by a flap and may let a tiny bit of air in but not too much unless the wind is blowing enough to raise the flaps or the flaps are not fitting normally. It isn't some advanced airtight flap, just a cap of vinyl hinged at the top. I'd guess more air comes through the weatherstripping on the top/bottom of the sash and through the tracks themselves than through the weep holes. The extreme left/right sash edges have tight bulb seals and I don't expect any problems there. In general, sliders (except maybe the inline Schuco?) aren't quite as airtight as other window types such as double hungs, casements, etc.
The Simonton double-hung windows I've seen have a bulb seal at the bottom of the lower sash, and that doesn't seem to let water (or air) past very easily. It also has a sloped sill to help with drainage. But, I've found the slider screens seal at the corners much better then the double-hungs, so there are trade offs with each design. All of this said, the Simonton windows in California are slightly different models compared to the ones we have here, so you might verify what I'm saying.
As for your contact/reference - I don't know why anyone who knows the advantages of LowE wouldn't get it for their home. For the price, I think it is a no-brainer to significantly improve window performance, unless you live in some utopia where is is 70F every day/night. If so, let me know where!
Here in MN we always have at least a quarter inch gap on all four sides to insulate. The gap is made for two reasons. The first being needed for a proper installation. There's never the perfect opening to put your window into. Most existing openings are out of level and out of square. The gap allows us to properly shim the window and make corrections so the window can work at it's highest performance level. The second reason being insulation. We need it here because the cold will find it's way in anywhere. We do our best to keep it out.
A lot of installers still use the old fiberglass insulation and stuff it in. Unfortunately fiberglass insulation is made to work in it's expanded form. It needs the air pockets to properly form it's best protection. Ounce you compact it and stuff it behind the frame it looses all it's attributes. So air infiltration is the biggest issue at hand with the fiberglass. The low expansion foam from Dow Chemical was developed with doors and windows in mind. The Pella Corporation paid Dow big money to come up with an expansion foam for the door & window industry. There are professional applicators that have guns with flat tips for the smallest of gaps. Ounce the foam is inserted and starts its expansion process. It fills all the little holes the fiberglass wouldn't. You were very wise in checking with the window manufacturer about the foamed application. There are still some manufacturers out there that will void a warranty if canned foam is used.
The water in the window track is very normal to many windows. It should never get high enough to flow back into the home. These pockets are used for the weeping system of the window. Windows which don't have a sloped sill for water run off use a weeping hole system to shed water from the window. Usually water runs out faster than you can pour it in. If it's pooling some where the window may be out of level or the weep holes are plugged with debris. You can check this by opening the sash and finding the weep holes in the sash pocket. In some cases the holes are covered by a removable track that is snapped in over the holes. The piece will run all the way across each bottom section. You can usually get at the track from either side and pull it up and out. Ounce you've accessed the holes you can make sure there is nothing blocking them from functioning. Most the time they get small pieces of vinyl from manufacturing or drywall dust and dirt from construction stuck in these holes. If nothing is visible remove the screen and pour a big glass of water in the pocket. Now stick your head out and look at the outside of your window and see where the water is pouring out from. Some holes are in the accessory groove and others are in the face of the frame with little flaps or foam in the holes. If the window is not level the water will tend to run to one side only. This may cause this hole a bigger burden to drain fast. If both holes are working check to see if they are pouring out at the same speed. If one hole seems slower or blocked. I use a chunk of a wired coat hanger to push through the holes from the outside and clean out any debris. You have to dig around to make sure you get through the different chambers to clear the holes out. Ounce you get this done your good to go. Just give it another clean flush with some water and your off to do something else. Hope this makes some kind of sense. Good Luck!!!
A lot of installers still use the old fiberglass insulation and stuff it in. Unfortunately fiberglass insulation is made to work in it's expanded form. It needs the air pockets to properly form it's best protection. Ounce you compact it and stuff it behind the frame it looses all it's attributes. So air infiltration is the biggest issue at hand with the fiberglass. The low expansion foam from Dow Chemical was developed with doors and windows in mind. The Pella Corporation paid Dow big money to come up with an expansion foam for the door & window industry. There are professional applicators that have guns with flat tips for the smallest of gaps. Ounce the foam is inserted and starts its expansion process. It fills all the little holes the fiberglass wouldn't. You were very wise in checking with the window manufacturer about the foamed application. There are still some manufacturers out there that will void a warranty if canned foam is used.
The water in the window track is very normal to many windows. It should never get high enough to flow back into the home. These pockets are used for the weeping system of the window. Windows which don't have a sloped sill for water run off use a weeping hole system to shed water from the window. Usually water runs out faster than you can pour it in. If it's pooling some where the window may be out of level or the weep holes are plugged with debris. You can check this by opening the sash and finding the weep holes in the sash pocket. In some cases the holes are covered by a removable track that is snapped in over the holes. The piece will run all the way across each bottom section. You can usually get at the track from either side and pull it up and out. Ounce you've accessed the holes you can make sure there is nothing blocking them from functioning. Most the time they get small pieces of vinyl from manufacturing or drywall dust and dirt from construction stuck in these holes. If nothing is visible remove the screen and pour a big glass of water in the pocket. Now stick your head out and look at the outside of your window and see where the water is pouring out from. Some holes are in the accessory groove and others are in the face of the frame with little flaps or foam in the holes. If the window is not level the water will tend to run to one side only. This may cause this hole a bigger burden to drain fast. If both holes are working check to see if they are pouring out at the same speed. If one hole seems slower or blocked. I use a chunk of a wired coat hanger to push through the holes from the outside and clean out any debris. You have to dig around to make sure you get through the different chambers to clear the holes out. Ounce you get this done your good to go. Just give it another clean flush with some water and your off to do something else. Hope this makes some kind of sense. Good Luck!!!
800-399-4623