Hi.
This is a little off topic, but about the same issues.
When I was shopping for Retrofit windows, I looked at many friends homes and how they felt about their windows.
Milgrad Classic Vinyl windows were the constant winners, specially with respect to sound control. My best friend showed me that when he closes his window, *all* outside noises goes away.
If you are considering replacing the entire slidding door, you may want to consider Milgard. They seem to have a large space between panels which helps with noise.
If others have any practical experience pro/con Milgard with noise, please state your experience.
Good luck
Help with sound transmission thru sliding door- info please
Sound transmission through sliding glass doors
Oberon: to answer your questions
1. Yes the glass physically moves when I press on it. When I tap it I can count about 7 to 8 visible cycles of vibration.
2. the glass does not vibrate to the naked eye with sound
3. there is no visual distortion with pressing on the glass or tapping on the glass. If I push on the glass it bows slightly but not enough to distort vision
4. No, to your last question. There are no problems with locking or sliding the door. There is no movement of the overall construction of the sliding door unit.
Thanks also, Joe for your post about Milgard. I have not heard that brand name in the Dallas area but worthy of investigation if I cannot get satisfaction on the Simonton.
Thanks to you both,
Bill
1. Yes the glass physically moves when I press on it. When I tap it I can count about 7 to 8 visible cycles of vibration.
2. the glass does not vibrate to the naked eye with sound
3. there is no visual distortion with pressing on the glass or tapping on the glass. If I push on the glass it bows slightly but not enough to distort vision
4. No, to your last question. There are no problems with locking or sliding the door. There is no movement of the overall construction of the sliding door unit.
Thanks also, Joe for your post about Milgard. I have not heard that brand name in the Dallas area but worthy of investigation if I cannot get satisfaction on the Simonton.
Thanks to you both,
Bill
stuff
When glass is tempered it is normally visually and physically (touch) reasonably indistinguishable from "regular" annealed glass.
Given, tempered glass is always distorted (to some degree) and if you look at it thru polarized lenses you can see rainbow patterns in the glass, but few people "see" the distortion and fewer yet look at tempered glass with polarized lenses.
As well, when you touch tempered glass you shouldn't really notice a difference from annealed glass. Tap the side or rear window in your car and it shouldn't move and it shouldn't feel "wobbly"....neither should the glass in your patio door.
Within reason, door glass will have some give when touched or gently pushed - this is normal. It is a large sheet and it is installed in a relatively flexible frame, but from what you are describing I am getting a mental image of your glass being wobbly within the door sash.
There is a phenomena in tempered glass where the glass can be quite "rubbery" after completing the tempering process. This generally occurs when tempering thinner lites that have an aspect ration approaching a square, but it can occur in lites that have more of a rectangular aspect ratio as well.
Without going into the technical details, this phenomena is not considered to be out-of-specification by ASTM or other governing bodies, but it certainly isn't desireable in most cases. It can result in "wobbly" or "loose" tempered glass in the installation and potentially more visual distortion as well.
I have never associated this particular phenomena with sound propagation, and I am not certain that this is your problem, but based on your description of both the sound and the look and feel of the glass in your doors, I am tending to lean in that direction - given that any sort of online diagnosis of a dilemma is problematical at best.
At this point I would have to assume that it is the glass since nothing else seems to fit the details - Occam and the razor at work again! However, since I suspect that this probably isn't a warranty issue it may be difficult to convince the window company to change out the current IGU's just on the assumption that that MAY be the problem. I would also hesitate to suggest that you cover the cost of the change (if that were to be your alternative) for the same reasons, but I am at a loss to offer any other suggestion at this point.
I wish I could offer a more definitive answer...
Good luck and please let us know what is happening with your doors - I am truly interested to see what the outcome is.
Also, please feel free to continue asking questions or providing more info...I would like to see this one thru to a conclusion. Thanks!
Given, tempered glass is always distorted (to some degree) and if you look at it thru polarized lenses you can see rainbow patterns in the glass, but few people "see" the distortion and fewer yet look at tempered glass with polarized lenses.
As well, when you touch tempered glass you shouldn't really notice a difference from annealed glass. Tap the side or rear window in your car and it shouldn't move and it shouldn't feel "wobbly"....neither should the glass in your patio door.
Within reason, door glass will have some give when touched or gently pushed - this is normal. It is a large sheet and it is installed in a relatively flexible frame, but from what you are describing I am getting a mental image of your glass being wobbly within the door sash.
There is a phenomena in tempered glass where the glass can be quite "rubbery" after completing the tempering process. This generally occurs when tempering thinner lites that have an aspect ration approaching a square, but it can occur in lites that have more of a rectangular aspect ratio as well.
Without going into the technical details, this phenomena is not considered to be out-of-specification by ASTM or other governing bodies, but it certainly isn't desireable in most cases. It can result in "wobbly" or "loose" tempered glass in the installation and potentially more visual distortion as well.
I have never associated this particular phenomena with sound propagation, and I am not certain that this is your problem, but based on your description of both the sound and the look and feel of the glass in your doors, I am tending to lean in that direction - given that any sort of online diagnosis of a dilemma is problematical at best.
At this point I would have to assume that it is the glass since nothing else seems to fit the details - Occam and the razor at work again! However, since I suspect that this probably isn't a warranty issue it may be difficult to convince the window company to change out the current IGU's just on the assumption that that MAY be the problem. I would also hesitate to suggest that you cover the cost of the change (if that were to be your alternative) for the same reasons, but I am at a loss to offer any other suggestion at this point.
I wish I could offer a more definitive answer...
Good luck and please let us know what is happening with your doors - I am truly interested to see what the outcome is.
Also, please feel free to continue asking questions or providing more info...I would like to see this one thru to a conclusion. Thanks!
Sound Transmission Loss is the amount of sound reduction that occurs in transmission through a partition (door, window, space dividing element, wall assembly, etc.). The sound transmission loss in decibels is typically measured between 80-4000 Hertz frequencies.
Sound Transmission Class (STC) is a single-number rating, which represents the acoustical performance of a product exposed to an office noise environment. The test evaluates a product's ability to block common interior noises such as speech, radio, and television. The frequency range for this test is 125-4000 Hz (1/3 Octave Bands).
Outdoor-Indoor Transmission Class (OITC) is a single-number rating, which represents the acoustical performance of a product exposed to an exterior noise environment. The test evaluates a product's ability to reduce air and ground transportation noises such as aircraft, freeway, and railroad. The frequency range for this test is 80-4000 Hz (1/3 Octave Bands).
Sound Absorption is the amount of sound energy absorbed by an object (office screen, acoustical panel, etc.). Two absorption ratings are generated from the test, which include the Sound Absorption Average (SAA) and Noise Reduction Coefficient (NRC). The Sound Absorption Average is a single-number rating, which represents the average sound absorption coefficient of a product between 200-2500 Hz (1/3 Octave Bands). The Noise Reduction Coefficient is also a single-number rating, which represents the average sound absorption coefficient for 250, 500, 1000, and 2000 Hz frequencies.
These are taken from the Jeld-Wen website.
Antoher thing to look at. When an IG, using intercept spacer is used, it is run through and oven and pressed. Once the window is done with this process it is supposed to be cooled to ambiant temperature. Most manufacturers seal them up while they are still hot. (Drive down a subdivision and look at all the glass that is concaved). Patio Door IGs are much larger and if sealed while hot, the panes have been know to touch.
I would be curious if the air space is lost in the center of the unit and the glass is actually almost touching or worse yet, touching.
Sound Transmission Class (STC) is a single-number rating, which represents the acoustical performance of a product exposed to an office noise environment. The test evaluates a product's ability to block common interior noises such as speech, radio, and television. The frequency range for this test is 125-4000 Hz (1/3 Octave Bands).
Outdoor-Indoor Transmission Class (OITC) is a single-number rating, which represents the acoustical performance of a product exposed to an exterior noise environment. The test evaluates a product's ability to reduce air and ground transportation noises such as aircraft, freeway, and railroad. The frequency range for this test is 80-4000 Hz (1/3 Octave Bands).
Sound Absorption is the amount of sound energy absorbed by an object (office screen, acoustical panel, etc.). Two absorption ratings are generated from the test, which include the Sound Absorption Average (SAA) and Noise Reduction Coefficient (NRC). The Sound Absorption Average is a single-number rating, which represents the average sound absorption coefficient of a product between 200-2500 Hz (1/3 Octave Bands). The Noise Reduction Coefficient is also a single-number rating, which represents the average sound absorption coefficient for 250, 500, 1000, and 2000 Hz frequencies.
These are taken from the Jeld-Wen website.
Antoher thing to look at. When an IG, using intercept spacer is used, it is run through and oven and pressed. Once the window is done with this process it is supposed to be cooled to ambiant temperature. Most manufacturers seal them up while they are still hot. (Drive down a subdivision and look at all the glass that is concaved). Patio Door IGs are much larger and if sealed while hot, the panes have been know to touch.
I would be curious if the air space is lost in the center of the unit and the glass is actually almost touching or worse yet, touching.
Sound transmission -sliding glass door-quick replies please!
OK, Guys: here is the scoop. The Simonton tech and mfgr rep were out here this morning to assess the situation. They are not guaranteeing that what they are suggesting will fix the problem but here is their proposed solution:
Install triple strength laminate glass on the outside sheet of glass to absorb the sound. Due to the limits imposed by the width of the frame, they say that will reduce the air space to 1/8" which will still be argon filled. They indicate that the energy/heat/cold transmission effect should be minimal and they are hoping this will eliminate the sound problem-but no guarantees. They want to charge $10 per sq. ft for the glass ($360) and furnish the labor at no additional cost to complete the job. The general contractor will also be involved in this transaction.
Based on what I have read above, the width of dead air space in between glass sheets is significant in reducing sound but how does the sound deadening property of triple laminate glass stack up against dead air space? I have also read that laminate glass is a great sound insulator. Is doing this a good move? My question revolves around the solution of the problem moreso than the money. Your thoughts please!!! I need to make a decision. Your help much appreciated. Thanks,
Bill
Install triple strength laminate glass on the outside sheet of glass to absorb the sound. Due to the limits imposed by the width of the frame, they say that will reduce the air space to 1/8" which will still be argon filled. They indicate that the energy/heat/cold transmission effect should be minimal and they are hoping this will eliminate the sound problem-but no guarantees. They want to charge $10 per sq. ft for the glass ($360) and furnish the labor at no additional cost to complete the job. The general contractor will also be involved in this transaction.
Based on what I have read above, the width of dead air space in between glass sheets is significant in reducing sound but how does the sound deadening property of triple laminate glass stack up against dead air space? I have also read that laminate glass is a great sound insulator. Is doing this a good move? My question revolves around the solution of the problem moreso than the money. Your thoughts please!!! I need to make a decision. Your help much appreciated. Thanks,
Bill
laminated glass
I like their idea in your situation. Laminated glass in the door should help a great deal. Again, I am not certain of what is heppening with your doors, but sound attenuation numbers with laminated glass is very comparable to very wide airspaces in the IGU.
On the negative side, that 1/8" space will affect the energy performance of the doors. The optimum spacing for argon effectiveness as an insulator is about 7/16"...so 1/8" is a bit narrow...I am also assuming that since they are installing the laminate to the exterior there won't be a LowE option on the unit? Still, if it eliminates the sound I suspect that you will be very happy with the result despite the decrease in energy performance.
$10 sqft for a laminate upgrade isn't a bad price at all, especially if they are throwing in the labor for free.
Finally, I am dropping in a post I wrote sometime ago about a similar problem as you described...I can't say that it is the same thing...and I can't say that I was even correct in my previous assumption...but, maybe it will make some sense in your current situation?
BTW, this one followed a great post by Guy at the time, so there are a couple of references to his earlier post.
I admit that the reason for the apparent echo or reverberation in the new windows had me stumped…and the following is something of a “scientific wild-ass guessâ€
On the negative side, that 1/8" space will affect the energy performance of the doors. The optimum spacing for argon effectiveness as an insulator is about 7/16"...so 1/8" is a bit narrow...I am also assuming that since they are installing the laminate to the exterior there won't be a LowE option on the unit? Still, if it eliminates the sound I suspect that you will be very happy with the result despite the decrease in energy performance.
$10 sqft for a laminate upgrade isn't a bad price at all, especially if they are throwing in the labor for free.
Finally, I am dropping in a post I wrote sometime ago about a similar problem as you described...I can't say that it is the same thing...and I can't say that I was even correct in my previous assumption...but, maybe it will make some sense in your current situation?
BTW, this one followed a great post by Guy at the time, so there are a couple of references to his earlier post.
I admit that the reason for the apparent echo or reverberation in the new windows had me stumped…and the following is something of a “scientific wild-ass guessâ€
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