Double Pane v. Triple Pane Schuco

[bmpamatat]

Ok so I just spoke with customer service at Schuco and she explained all the options. Of course the sales rep I am working with locally is quoting me the Mercedes (Triple Pane, Triple Glazing, Low-E, Kryption). My question is this. Is having 3 panes versus 2 going to have a greater impact on noise or energy efficiency. My understanding is noise and the house I am in is in a very quiet area, but I would appreciate if anyone can explain to me the difference.

Thanks

[InfoSponge]

Triple pane windows will result in more energy efficient windows compared to a similarly constructed double pane window. There is no doubt about that. Both the u-factor and the SHGC will be lower for triple pane. Efficient triple pane windows are usually krypton filled while efficient double pane windows are usually argon filled.

In general, going to triple pane will reduce noise transmission only a very tiny bit (maybe a little more if the gap between panes is as larger than the average triple pane), but not as much as going to laminated glass, for example. This is the case for the windows where I have looked at the technical specifications, and I expect the same trend applies to most brands to varying degrees.

It is up to you (or an energy professional, a trustworthy salesperson, etc.) to consider whether the added energy efficiency and noise reduction are worth it based on the cost, the home's construction, climate, your expected length of stay in the home, projected energy costs, etc. It may or may not be worth it.

[GCD52]

You are leaving a lot of knowledge out. First, 93% of all Schuco Windows are triple glass,....simply because double glass does nothing but give you a functionable window. Schuco's TPS triple glass saves you 180 BTU's per square foot of glass, per hour, at sea level, when it is 20 degrees with a 10 mph wind outside and inside temperature of 72 degress. For example, if you have 16 windows that are 36x58, you save approx. 2700 BTU times 16, which equals 43,200 BTU's times 24 hours, equals 1,036,800 BTU's of YOUR HEAT, the heat you paid for, YOU GET TO KEPT IT LONGER, thus lowering your energy bills,( check your Boiler Plate, the avg. home boiler has a BTU output of 130.000 BTU's per hour) Secondly, now that you are saving all this energy, your boiler and /or your AC lonely works half as much as it would have, thus adding many years to their life. So far I am only talking about "your heat", we have not even figured in the energy that is reflected in the form of heat radiation, not to mention what you save in heat convection. Thirdly, do you mean to say that planes do not fly over your home, you do not hear the lawnmower, their are no children in your neighberhood, .....you get the point.
Would you only put "steel belted radial tires on the front wheels, because the back wheels only spin, but the front spin and turn"??????[/quote]

[researcher]

[quore]now that you are saving all this energy[/quote]

I won't know know how much energy is saved unless you tell me how much Schuco's TPS double glass saves per square foot of glass, per hour, at sea level, when it is 20 degrees with a 10 mph wind outside and inside temperature of 72 degrees. It is the difference between Schuco's double and triple that needs to be known.

[InfoSponge]

If you are a person who lives in an area that averages 20F for 24 hour periods, GCD52 is implying that moving from double-pane to triple pane saves his average house with 16 windows and a 130,000 BTU/hr furnace from running the heat an extra 8 hours per day (1,036,800 BTU Saved per day / 130,000 BTU/hr furnace = 8 hours per day). All of this he implies comes from a reduction in u-factor of .08 (.30 - .22) when going from double pane Schuco Corona 4000 windows to the same window in triple pane, right? So, we can save 8 hours of heating time per .08 reduction in u-value. To see how completely absurd this is, assume we were able to completely remove all heat loss through the windows for a u-factor of .00 (impossible, but let's see how much we could save) - we would be saving ourselves 30 hours of heating per 24 hours (.30/.08*8 )!

bmpamatat, if someone says double pane windows are only functionable and not a good choice for you without knowing anything about your climate, length of stay in the home, and other factors, take their advice with a grain of salt, especially if they are implying things that are just not possible. Or maybe the comparison was triple pane Schuco to 1972 aluminum windows, instead of the same window in double pane, like the homeowner asked about?

Schuco windows are great, but let's be reasonable in our comparisons. The fact is that only a portion of a home's heat loss is through the windows (usually 20-50%). I significant portion, yes, but never all of it or "more than all of it".

[windowrep]

Ridiculous comparison, there has been absurd "savings " examples on this site before but someone roll out the trophy please. he had to be laughing the whole time he typed that. lmao

[FenEx]

Good post InfoSponge.

It is very well known that I am a huge advocate of the Schuco products, but I still always recommend using "factual" information, features and benefits to promote any products or services.

As for this thread, here is a formula that virtually anyone can apply to help determine heat loss approximations. Simply do the math... but do it correctly.

To explain this. I'll use a single pane of glass (approx R-1) vs. the aformentioned double-pane/low-e/Argon (R-3.3), vs triple/dbl-low-e/Krypton (R-4.5).

Heat loss for building materials: Q(btu/hr)=Area(sq/ft) x Delta T (temp difference in-out) / R-Value.

* A btu is approx. equal to heat provided a by a wood kitchen match.
*100,000 btu's = 1 Therm
Yearly heat loss or savings estimates would depend on the heating/cooling degree days for a specific geographic location (which were not provided), as well as other criteria.

When applying the earlier data: 20 degrees outside/72 degrees inside DeltaT =52), with a house that has 16 windows @ 36"x58" (14.5 sq/ft) each, nuetral pressure... here's what you get:

Single pane heat loss:
52 btu/hr/ft
754 btu/hr/window
12,064 btu/hr/all windows
289,536 btu/day that it's 20 degrees outside/ 72 inside

Double-Pane (same criteria)
17 btu/hr/ft
246 btu/hr/window
3,936 btu/hr/all windows
94,464 btu/day that it's 20 degrees outside/ 72 inside

Triple-Pane (same criteria)
12 btu/hr/ft
174 btu/hr/window
2784 btu/hr/all windows
66,816 btu/day that it's 20 degrees outside/ 72 inside

End result in very simple terms:

Over the single pane units, the triple pane mentioned could save well over $1,000 a year. As to the original question, the Schuco dbl vs trpl savings in this circumstance would probably be closer to $200/yr. Without knowing the location of the house and running diagnostic testing, it is not possible to figure a specific dollar savings as many other factors in a home are sure to contribute.

Now, I will mention this... that their are additional advantages to the Schuco triples. Considerable noise reduction and greater comfort near the windows is even more of a benefit to many homeowners than saving the extra bucks on energy. Schuco prides themselves on offering premium performance and that is why they lead-off with triple-pane at a very reasonable cost to their dealers. Who want's to buy a Ferrari with a four-cylinder?

Why some push bogus pledges with exaggerated savings is beyond me. It's a great product that stands proudly upon it's own merit of performance, beauty and exceptional engineering. For those reading, please do NOT directly affiliate all dealers of a specific product as being one and the same. I actually laughed too (like Windowrep) when I read the aforementioned claims.

[InfoSponge]

I thought I'd post some similar calculations for winter heating only for a more moderate climate. I live in the central US where it is rarely below freezing for more than a few consecutive days. We have about 3-4 months of real heating season where it averages about 41 F for those days.

Assume 41 F outside, 72 F inside, so temp difference = 31 F, in a house with 16 36x58" (14.5 sqft) windows (excuse the formatting of the columns below which I can't seem to fix):

Cooling Season Indoor Temp: 72 F
Cooling Season Avg Outdoor Temp: 41 F
Heating Days/Year: 120 Days
$/Therm (From Gas Bill): 1.95 Dollars
Single Pane U-Factor: 1 U-value of whole window
Double Pane Argon U-Factor 0.31 U-value of whole window
Triple Pane Krypton U-Factor 0.22 U-value of whole window
# Windows 16 Windows
Avg Window Width 36 Inches
Avg Window Height 58 Inches

Calculated Value For: Single Pane Double Pane Triple Pane
Avg Window R-Value 1 3.23 4.55
Avg Window Ft2 14.5 14.5 14.5
BTU Lost Per Ft2 Per Hr 31 9.61 6.82
BTU Lost Per Window Per Hr 450 139 99
BTU Lost Per Window Per Day 10,788 3,344 2,373
BTU Lost Per House Per Day 172,608 53,508 37,974
Therms Lost Per Day 1.73 0.54 0.38
Approx $ Lost Per Day $3.37 $1.04 $0.74
Approx $ Lost Per Month $100.98 $31.30 $22.21
Approx $ Lost Per Heating Season $403.90 $125.21 $88.86
Approx Savings Per Heating Season Over Single Pane: $0.00 $278.69 $315.04

For my area, there is a huge winter savings per season going to double-pane Argon from single-pane considering u-factor only. Once you add in more savings due to lower SHGC/drafts and the summer savings on top of the above documented winter savings, things will look even better. Summer savings can be larger, due to our long cooling season. In my more moderate climate, triple pane is a little harder to justify, but for colder climates, one can see the benefits in an era of increasing energy costs.

If anyone wants a spreadsheet to approximate winter season savings as above (where you can type in your own temperatures, window sizes, gas cost, etc.), I'll be happy to email it to anyone that wants it if you post your email address or point me to your profile with an email address.

[researcher]

Hi InfoSponge,

You posted these Approx Savings Per Heating Season Over Single Pane: $0.00 $278.69 $315.04.

I have two question i wonder if you could answer. Are these calculations based on a home with 'no' air infiltration which would also mean never opening a door to leave or inter ones home? And are there calculations also based on the assumption that every single BTU is actually used to heat the home? In other words, a heating system that is 100% efficient?

[InfoSponge]

Researcher, the short answer to your question is we're only looking at conduction savings due directly to changing window glass, so we're not considering other savings due to the furnace wasting less gas, air leakage, etc. to keep things simple and also because those factors differ greatly by person.

The long answer is that the "Approx $ Lost Per/BTU Lost Per" numbers are $/heat that escapes out the windows due to conduction. It makes no difference how efficient your furnace is - every single BTU lost is still lost, if your furnace is 100% or 50% efficient. There is more $/heat and unburned gas that escapes directly from furnace and the related ventilation, but that isn't what we are calculating here. If you want to add in the savings of less unburned gas escaping and less heat loss through your duct work due to fewer minutes of heating per day, and can calculate those numbers, feel free to add that in yourself and your savings will be larger. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see most homes with 25+% of extra savings due to furnace efficiency issues and less heat lost in duct work.

I said, "you add in more savings due to lower SHGC/drafts and the summer savings" so these numbers are only for basic heating savings due to conduction, and do not consider air leakage or radiated heat savings of the window, since that is more difficult to estimate in a general fashion. As above, the fact that somebody opens a door is not considered, since we are assuming a constant average indoor temperature. Heat lost through other sources definitely costs the homeowner, but I'm not estimating those factors.

If you want to see the exact calculations (it is basically the formulas FenEx already posted), feel free to post your email address and I'll send you the spreadsheet. Then you can add in whatever other factors you want to estimate and consider.

This a very conservative estimate method to estimate winter savings from changing the glass that should apply to nearly everyone after changing the assumption numbers - actual savings should be much larger, in addition to the non-energy-related benefits of changing windows.

[researcher]

InfoSponge, I thank you for your reply, i understand these calculations now.

[GCD52]

You did not understand the statement, first I said "approx", secondly I was only talking about the heat the homeowner produces, air conditioning is also heat, just less of it.
Do you know that a BTU is, I doubt it, so here goes for you know-it-alls.
A BTU is the measurement of heat that it takes to change one gallon of water 1 degree at sea level. So where you live means nothing, the laws of physics are the same every where, single, double or triple, the example I made was the heat/AC the homeowner generates inside there home, your argument as valid, but that is not what I am speaking about. What I can prove is DOUBLE GLASS DOES BARELY NOTHING, ....NOTHING, IF YOU WANT THE PROOF, IT WILL COST YOU, I NEED TO RECOUP THE COLLEGE DAY FUNDS,......Thermodynamics was a breeze.
Remember, I was giving an example inside!!!! do you get it yet?

[InfoSponge]

GCD52, the laws of physics don't change by country/state, but there are variables in the equations that certainly do change by location such as average temperatures. For example, I have friends who live very comfortably in coastal California and in Mexico City without a furnace and only need air conditioning for a couple hours a day for less than 2 months out of the year. For those people, can you explain why a double pane window is merely functionable and why they would require a triple pane window when the average summer temperature is just a few degrees above the indoor temperature and they have never seen anything close to a freezing temperature? Their electrical bill for AC is just a few hundred dollars per year.

Since you have studied thermodynamics, you can probably point out where the conduction heat loss formula posted here goes wrong, and you can also finally explain what you were comparing to when you implied that the homeowner could save approximately 8 hours of heating time per day by switching to triple pane glass from double pane, and then explain how the scientific definition of a BTU you quoted measurably changes the posted formula or the discussion at hand. What is important to a homeowner is how a BTU translstes into dollars on a utility bill, which I believe we've already covered above.

You won't sway many people here or impress potential customers by typing in all caps and saying that you know mysterious window secrets you are not willing to share. On the other hand, if you want to clearly present your case and include some factual data and comparisons, you'll find lots of willing ears - myself included.

[windowrep]

fenex and w4u will you get off some of that money this site pays you and give it to gdc52 so he can share his secret. finally an honest guy on this site with the secret that will turn the replacement window industry on its head. infosponge and researcher you can stop making sense any time now and just believe what someone says. experience means nothing when put up against a college degree. this thread just keeps getting funnier. i can put triple pane windows in my house and the gas company will send me a check every month. i'm in. check this out. new windows will save you some money in energy bills, they will look great, they will add value to your home,period. just my thought

[randy]

I'm still trying to figure out what the "heat the homeowner produces" is. How did body heat enter the conversation?

GCD52 has me in awe.