Alside (Apex) 8000 Signature vs. Alside Excalibur ?

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Newbee
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: KY

Alside (Apex) 8000 Signature vs. Alside Excalibur ?

#1 Post by Newbee »

Dear All;

I have a bit a dilemma. I was approached to use my house as a selling site for Mengel Exteriors' windows, inturn for reduced replacement windows. The first seller, brought materials for the Apex (Mengel) 8000 Signature "Pinch-Point Fusion-Welded" triple glass windows for 60% off. The person who came to the next appointment, changed the offer to Alside's Excalibur "fusion-welded vinyl" double glass windows for 30% off but with free installation and a life time limited warrantee.

I have a brick house, with original wooden windows. What do the experts say?

windowrep
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:57 am
Location: ne ohio

#2 Post by windowrep »

run


of course you already knew that or you would not even have posted such a question. you don't need an expert to tell you that. you have common sense and by not being suckered in to anything, you used it wisely. congradulations and if you are interested in replacement windows do searches on this site and then search out a company you are comfortable with. good luck.

randy
Posts: 1064
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:27 am
Location: Houston, TX
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#3 Post by randy »

The old "advertising house" scam is still alive I see. While there are companies who will discount jobs that are located strategically on busy streets or corner lots on busy intersections, it is very likely that you have run across a scam to get your signature on a contract.

If they are honestly discounting your job, they should be willing to provide you with some references and be willing to so state on your written proposal. Speak with some of their previous customers and ask if they too were "advertising houses". If so, it's a scam. If the company will not put the offer in writing, with the fact that you are specifically being discounted in return for the right to use your home for advertising, it is a scam.

Typically, these companies will require that you:

1) let them put a yard sign out front for 30 days or so
2) take before and after photos
3) publish the photos
4) agree not to disclose the price you paid to anyone
5) sign the contract immediatly

Tell them that if you find out they are trying to scam you, it will be reported to the local District Attorney's office. If they're legitimate, this won't scare them. If they are frauds, they will back out of your house quickly and never return.

I have never heard of the Apex 8000, but the Alside Excalibur window is a middle of the road window. Many better, many worse. If you want better windows, look at the Alside Sheffield or Simonton 5500. You really don't want to go to a lesser grade window.

jonesing
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:23 pm

#4 Post by jonesing »

The "Apex Signature" window is an Alside 8000 which is a decent window. It's a step up from the Sheffield but not quite as nice as the Preservation. Don't believe the "best window on the market" line from the salesperson - it's not even the best within Alside. That being said, we did buy our windows from Apex but were dissatisfied with the sales presentation (LOTS of BS). I know enough about windows though that I knew it was a nice window and could ignore most of the sales pitch. They are decent windows with a nice warranty and a step up from the Excalibur. I ended up paying ~$525 per opening (YMMV) with a nice warranty and good installation. That's triple-glaze w/ krypton and no removal fees for the old aluminum windows (which were a b*tch to get out). It's too bad I had to sit through the salesperson's blathering to get there though. Check to see if you can get the spacer upgraded to SuperSpacer. I chose Intercept only because the seal failure warranty was good.

And yes, the "advertising house" is total BS. They should be able to give you that price whenever. It's a back-door way of doing the "price is only good for today" schtick.


Also, the "R-10" rating they advertise is a "center of glass" rating (an area about the size of a quarter). They will likely tell you that R-10 is for the whole window but it's not true.

In a perfect world, the sales tactics would have disqualified them but I know way more about windows than any reasonable consumer should (does this makes me a geek?) I was able to sift through the sales game and settle on options, installation and price and ignore the rest of it.

Newbee
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: KY

#5 Post by Newbee »

Thank you, thank you, thank you, to everyone--I believe that your all's feed back is not only good for me (which it is) but for others hitting this site--please continue for their sakes!

jonesing
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:23 pm

#6 Post by jonesing »

A little more detail on the Apex "Promotional Home Program":

- Salesperson will tell you that your house was chosen as part of the program and you will receive an incredible deal. In reality, someone strolls your neighborhood and looks for houses with old-looking windows. This is how your house was chosen as a "promo" - you need windows and they want to sell them to you.

- If you hesitate, the salesperson will create a false sense of urgency by stating that he has someone else who is going to sign a promo contract in the area. He will create the sense that if you don't do the deal now, he will give the deal to someone else and you will be S-O-L. (Thus creating a back-door "discount-only-good-for-today" sales tactic.)

- He will state that once you sign, you have to swear-up-and-down-or-else to not divulge the "incredible" deal you're getting to anyone who comes by to see your windows. This creates the sense that you're getting such a good deal you'd be a big dummy to turn it down.

- You have to promise to keep their sign on your lawn for some outrageously long time (like a year or something).

- If you don't sign and tell him that the 8000s are too pricey, he will come back and up-sell a lower brand (Excalibur or something similar). Using the 8000s as a high-water mark, you'll likely end up paying more for the Excalibur than you would have ordinarily.

I suggest you research the heck out of any window and decide, based on common sense and info on these boards, what is a fair price. Once you know what the window generally costs (with the options you want) you're in a better position to decide what you're willing to pay. The promo program or any other false discount can then be ignored, as you see fit. Also check on who is going to install the windows. Some subs do marginal work (I had one sub at a previous house borrow my tools (he forgot his) and then made off with my hammer!).

One good thing is that Apex has a good BBB record with only one complaint (which the salesperson explained to me in detail).

randy
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#7 Post by randy »

I would advise a homeowner to avoid companies who operate this way all together. It's just not smart to get into a contractual agreement with anyone who is dishonest. Even if the company is offering a truly awesome price, can you trust them to perform, warranty, service, etc......?

You can always find another company to deal honestly with you in every regard. The only way to get rid of the sleazy companies is to starve them to death by not buying anything from them.
Last edited by randy on Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

jonesing
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:23 pm

#8 Post by jonesing »

Randy has an excellent point but sometimes it's tough to find the proverbial diamond-in-the-rough company. Keep looking. If you get the creeps about Apex (or anyone else), move on!

JScott
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:48 pm

#9 Post by JScott »

You failed to mention they also tell you what 3 other "competitors" costs will be for your home. Sears, etc... and of coarse theirs is lower by a substantial amount. When Apex came to Louisville they bought the name Mengel because it was a locally owned siding company and in this town people like to do business with local people. I have overheard what their people where telling potential customers at the home show last March(Of coarse I was standing around the corner) and I wanted to punch the guy for the BS he was pushing. I wish we had more controls on marketing in this industry. Call Weber, family owned, no subcontracted labor, no commissioned sales staff and no BS. They work as a team.

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