Man, These Simonton 9800's are Nice . . .

[Alacoyote]

I hope that no one confuses me with some of the other posters who claim to have had windows installed recently. I'll try to keep this clean.

After an 8-week wait (slightly longer than estimated), our windows were installed this week. Just for review, we purchased Simonton 9800's with the Sensor Package (double-strength 1â€

[randy]

I am very happy to hear of your satisfation with your new windows Alacoyote. You will get many years of comfort and quiet from those
windows.

You may be aware of this already, but by upgrading to the 1" IG with Super Spacer, you automatically get the lifetime glass breakage warranty from Simonton.

Take care.

[Alacoyote]

I am aware of that, Randy, and given that I've found two golf balls in my yard recently, I may need it (some neighborhood kid broke one of my windows this way a few years back).

My wife tells me that the A/C actually went off for several hours today (the high was 93 degrees today). That's the first time that's ever happened in August at our house!

Thanks again for your help.

[seamaster]

Alacoyote and others,
Can you share your understanding of the benefit of the optional reinforced meeting rail on the 9800 series window? Is this mostly beneficial on very large windows or any size?

Alacoyote,
I think you posted your estimate for your windows on this or the other board. If it is not too intrusive, would you mind sharing how complicated your installation was? Did you have to remove old metal frames and replace with new wooden ones?

[Alacoyote]

Seamaster:

I'll have to leave your question about the reinforced meeting rails to the pros. Generally, I would say that the purpose is to strengthen the frame in the area where it's most susceptible, whether to wind, bowing, opening/closing, etc. I would think that it would be more important on larger windows. And while the budget is always an issue, my contractor showed me the upgrade price sheet and the reinforced meeting rail was only $7 a window, so it will hardly break the bank.

As for my installation, we had standard, single-hung wood windows with "brick mould" exterior wood trim. Essentially, they removed the exterior frame pieces that held the windows in, pulled out the plastic side tracks and removed the old windows. This effectively leaves a box-frame opening for the new windows. The new windows were then installed from the outside (actually, lifted through the opening from inside the house and then pulled back flush against the back side of the existing interior frame/trim). The windows were screwed into the sides of the existing wood frame, checked for plumb/square and thoroughly caulked. The existing exterior wood sill and brick mould were then "wrapped" with baked aluminum cladding and caulked some more.

So, we did not have any metal framing to deal with. If you are having aluminum or other metal windows removed, as I understand this is a considerably more time-consuming -- and expensive -- procedure than what I required. Again, I will have to defer to others on exactly how that process is accomplished.

[Bill]

The aluminum sash reinforcement adds rigidity to the sash where you would get less deflection when the window is subject to high wind gusts. When higher DP ratings are required the reinforcement is added to achieve the desired DP rating. Below I have listed the specifications of windows of the same size so you can see how the DP ratings change as reinforcement is added

Simonton will begin to add the reinforcement standard on very large windows in order to maintain the minimum DP Rating.

I have not had any problems with small and average sized windows without reinforcement. I only add it on triple glazed and laminate glass packaged because of the weight of the glass. If you are in a coastal area you should always get the higher DP rated window with reinforcement.

30" (T) X 50" (T) 5500 Reflections White Double Hung; Tip-to-Tip; BOX; Intercept; Low E Softcoat (Prosolar); Argon Gas; Double Glazed; Regular Strength; Half Screen Fiberglass Extruded Screen Mold; 00 No Reinforcement; Two Air Latches; Two White; Logo Lock; Head Expander; Sill Extender (UI=80"); DP:25; Test Number=60739.02; U-Factor:.33; SHGC:.29; Unit qualifies for ENERGY STAR region(s): Northern, North Central, South Central, Southern

30" (T) X 50" (T) 5500 Reflections White Double Hung; Tip-to-Tip; BOX; Intercept; Low E Softcoat (Prosolar); Argon Gas; Double Glazed; Regular Strength; Half Screen Fiberglass Extruded Screen Mold; A2 Mtg Rail/Stile; Two Air Latches; Two White; Logo Lock; Head Expander; Sill Extender (UI=80"); DP:55; Test Number=60504.02; U-Factor:.33; SHGC:.29; Unit qualifies for ENERGY STAR region(s): Northern, North Central, South Central, Southern

30" (T) X 50" (T) 5500 Reflections White Double Hung; Tip-to-Tip; BOX; Intercept; Low E Softcoat (Prosolar); Argon Gas; Double Glazed; Double Strength (1/8"); Half Screen Fiberglass Extruded Screen Mold; A9 All Rails&Stiles; Two Air Latches; Two White; Logo Lock; Head Expander; Sill Extender (UI=80"); DP:65; Test Number=64468.01; U-Factor:.33; SHGC:.29; Unit qualifies for ENERGY STAR region(s): Northern, North Central, South Central, Southern

[Alacoyote]

I'll add the following info for the 9800's, taken directly from the stickers off of the windows (all with Sensor Glass package and meeting rail reinforcement where applicable):

DH (with grids) (sizes 32x37.5, 24x72, 32x72, 36x72): U-Factor 0.31, SHGC 0.26, VT 0.43, DP +50/-50

DH (no grids) (sizes 32x54, 32x72): U-Factor 0.31, SHGC 0.29, VT 0.48, DP +50/-50

Slider (65x54): U-Factor 0.31, SHGC 0.28, VT 0.50, DP +25/-25

Half-round geometric: U-Factor 0.31, SHGC 0.28, VT 0.48, DP +60/-60

[Window4U (IL)]

Just as is the case (unfortunately) with too many installers/laborers, had I not been present throughout the installation process, I'm pretty certain that some corners (even if minor) would have been cut. Perhaps the installers would not have viewed their actions as cutting corners, or perhaps I'm just paranoid (having been burned by "remodelers" before), but I would urge anyone who is making this type of substantial investment to not only be home, but check on the installers regularly (if not continuously). The simple knowledge that you might walk in will likely dissuade someone who might otherwise look for a shorter way to accomplish some task that eventually will be covered up and go by unnoticed. Please don't misunderstand: Overall, I was very pleased with my installation but I'd be lying if I said that I would ever be comfortable with not being right there during such a process.

Nothing personal, but that post just sends shivers down my spine, especially after a job I started Thursday.

What other job can men across the country who are conscientous top notch and experienced craftsman do, where they are hounded routinely their entire career by people who don't have a clue of the proper methods of their trade?
I have some advice for people who think this way. Do the proper research to get a great crew before you buy the windows!!!! Go look at a company's jobs until you are satisfied that you have found true professionals, then ask for the crew who did those jobs, in writing. Then, once the crew comes out, PLEASE stay in the background and let them do their job. Doesn't this sound like a better idea than hiring someone solely off a salesman's pitch, then fretting over the installers?

I was out thursday with one of my installers installing 4 double casements which should have been a 4 or 5 hour job at worst. Both the husband and wife were all over us continually, raising hell over the most stupid and idiotic things all day. They never asked a question about a concern, which by the way is totally acceptable and normal for people to do. They just attacked and attacked.
One of their complaints had to do with the fact that when the windows are open they could actually look out through the screen and see the painted screws in the jamb that I screwed into the screw holes. Well, I guess they've got me there.
They actually went around following me with a 6" torpedo level and whispering. A little later I was foaming the windows from both inside and outside just to be prudent and I ran out of my last can of Hilti Foam after doing the inside, so for the outside I switched over to a can of Dow foam from a new case which I had bought that morning. I switch back and forth between the two foams depending on what supply house I stop at when I get low. (The products are identical performing products except one is tan and one is yellow). After foaming the exterior, the customers then came out to me and asked me to stop work on their job because they could see it was obvious I didn't know what I was doing. They said I was installing the windows wrong because they were not level. They also wanted me to dig out all the foam and refoam with the same color foam on the inside and outside so the windows would be uniform. Yes, ...I was almost speechless with disbelief. Even teling them they would never see the foam because the windows would have wood stops added and then wrapped with aluminum didn't matter to them.
I told them the windows were set perfectly and asked to see their 6" torpedo level. I set it on the window, flipped it end for end to check the level's accuracy, and the level was off by 1/4" in 6 inches. That means their level was off 2 1/2 inches in the width of the window!
I was going to go back yesterday to wrap the windows with aluminum (since they slowed me down so much the first day), but the lady said no way. She couldn't be there until monday and absolutely wants to be there to make sure I do it right. Oh joy, I just can't wait for monday to be taught the proper way to wrap aluminum around a window......

[Bill]

I feel your pain

Bill

[Alacoyote]

What other job can men across the country who are conscientous top notch and experienced craftsman do, where they are hounded routinely their entire career by people who don't have a clue of the proper methods of their trade?
I have some advice for people who think this way. Do the proper research to get a great crew before you buy the windows!!!! Go look at a company's jobs until you are satisfied that you have found true professionals, then ask for the crew who did those jobs, in writing. Then, once the crew comes out, PLEASE stay in the background and let them do their job. Doesn't this sound like a better idea than hiring someone solely off a salesman's pitch, then fretting over the installers?

Window4U:

Sounds like you had a bad day and, if homeowners treated me like this, I would feel the same way. But please don't lump me in with individuals like this.

I did not "hound" the installers. But when you're spending $10,000 on a project, I think it's only wise that you be there to observe what's going on, as much to learn about the process as anything else. I asked the occasional question but, beyond that, stayed out of their way, if not out of the room altogether.

Furthermore, you know nothing about my remodeling experiences or know-how, so jumping to the conclusion that I am "clueless" is unwarranted. Am I an expert? Far from it. Do I have some basic knowledge about framing, caulking and the like? You bet. I also learned a lot from this and the sister discussion board about what makes a good installation, and that advice came from a number of professionals, including yourself. So, as much as anything, I wanted to be sure that indeed they were incorporating these methods. And they did. And they likely would have whether I had been there or not. But it's my money and if I gain some some peace of mind by watching what's going on, that's my prerogative.

Moreover, prior to selecting my contractor, I visited several homes, spoke with the homeowners and observed the finished product, all of which looked great. This contractor only has one crew, so there was no concern that a "bad" crew was going to arrive. Still, even the best workers have bad days, or get tired, or sometimes misunderstand or are misinformed about some details that were agreed upon in the contract. So, as the homeowner I have two choices: (1) Pay no attention, hope everything goes right and, if not, contact the contractor and require the installers to come back out, perhaps multiple times (which, I assume, you're not too thrilled about, as that pulls you away from another job); or (2) If I happen to notice something that can be easly remedied right then, let the installers know.

When I did notice something (perhaps some area of caulking that was missed), I didn't yell at or berate the installers, or make unreasonable demands of them. But I did mention it to them, thereby saving them a trip back to my house, with ladders in tow, to climb back up the side of my house for a simple caulking fix. They seemed grateful that I noticed at that time, when it was easy to remedy. Perhaps you would have considered this to be "hounding." If so, I apologize to all of the perfect workers out there. But I will continue to do this as long as the check has my signature on it. I hope that you have a little more patience with people like me, on whom your livelihood depends, and not categorize me in with those who behave like the customers you described in your e-mail.

[Window4U (IL)]

Sounds like you had a bad day and, if homeowners treated me like this, I would feel the same way. But please don't lump me in with individuals like this.

If I made it sound like I was lumping you in with these people, my sincere apologies.
My recent experience may have me sensitive to the subject and I suppose temporarily has make me a little single minded in my opinion on the subject.

If you stayed out of the way, and asked an occasonal question when needed, you fit into the category of most prudent homeowners, and no one in the business including me has a problem with that. I did not in any way mean to sound like you as a homeowner has no right to keep an eye out on your project. You absolutely do.
I actually enjoy when a customer is sincerely interested and asks me questions and becomes intertested in methodology. If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't have spent so much of my time here the last 4 years chiming in to help educate people.
But, I still think it is a homeowner's responsibility to make sure they are getting a competent crew that knows how to properly install windows and has the ability to provide a nice looking job. When a homeowner feels like he has to be the foreman on the job because his crew shows up and appears to not have a clue how to install...well, that could have been avoided by proper research and contractural safeguards before the sale.

I'm happy your windows are in and wish you many years of lower energy bills and greater comfort.

[Alacoyote]

Window4U:

Glad we're on the same wavelength. Good luck with those crazies when you go back out to wrap their windows. But you should know by now, you'll never please people like this. They'll probably claim that the wrapping isn't the exact same shade of white as the windows...

[Window4U (IL)]

Oh no, you're right. Now I have something else to worry about this weekend. Thanks!

[randy]

edited post

[mikey105]

Alacoyote,

We're going to miss you bud ! I enjoyed your many posts, and you helped me a lot in making my own decisions out here on the left coast. I am having new Simonton's installed Monday by a nearby dealer and have totally given up on Home Depot for anything more than buying cement or bricks from. It was a long road and a hard lesson, but thanks to you and the other board helpers, plus your excellent command of the english language ( I loved reading your stuff) I learned a lot.