A place to talk about the Window Industry
Hmmm, if you equate the absolute cheapest product and installation with value, then sure, I guess they are a great choice. It says a lot about a company when they are actually CHEAPER than window world.
- Delaware Mike
- Posts: 866
- Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:32 pm
- Location: Delaware, New Jersey, Philadephia Area
I think the Vista Panorama is a real nice buy in mid-grade vinyl products. I'm not crazy about the sill or how the sill angle is attached in case of an inside installation without capping, but I can live with it for what the window costs. Also, their exterior glazing beads don't have a visible durometer glazing seal like most window companies. I feel this keeps the window looking younger for a longer duration.
Which particular product are you talking about? The dealers sell several different brands... Regardless, any window that can be sold at $185 installed is a piece of garbage and is likely being installed by a crackhead. I don't care how much "volume discount" you get, there is NO WAY to install a decent product at that price... Please list the product that you'd like to compare, then we can look at the NFRC and AAMA ratings to see how it stacks up.jrr284 wrote:So have you even looked at the window or are you just spouting ignorant comments? If it is so "substandard" can you explain what is so bad in comparison to your product? Thanks
Clearchoice went through some Corporate restructuring recently and took on the PlyGem product as a temporary measure to leverage their bargaining position with the Vista window company. Since then, Clearchoice is just a branding only but does indeed handle the Vista window product. For what it's worth, the windows are excellent quality for the price. WindowWorld and Clearchoice operate their organizations very similarly however, the Vista product in my opinion is a better product than the Alside product WindoWorld sells.
(Clear Choice) Vista makes a great window and so does (Window World) Alside. People buy vinyl windows because they don't want to pay a ton of money per window installed. If your building a custom home or make a ton of money buy a Marvin or a Loewen wood clad window. Clear Choice and Window World are both refreshing because they don't sell their window at a 200-300% mark up. That's why they don't use high pressure sale tactics or tin men, they don't have to! Window companies hate them because they can no longer rip off their customers and pay their Managers $150K per year and their reps $125,000 who work 2 hours per day running one lead a night. Contractors hate them because they don't do enough volume to compete on price. Even at $185 or $189 a solid Clear Choice or Window World dealer can and most do pay a $26-$30 per hour installer plus $14-15 per hour for a helper! Electricians make this kind of money if they are lucky or union... not crack heads. The days of $600, $800, $900 and a "if you buy tonight price" are over. I bought from Clear Choice in my area because they give you one great option, you don't have to worry about any confusion on 4000 or 6000 series, it' cut and dry and I trusted and liked my rep. I did have to give it some thought though.
Oh, last thing I liked before probably never viewing this blog again. Clear Choice used OSI Quad and PVC Clad aluminum coil, not vinyl clad or cheap caulk even if I wanted the $185. I do know a bit more about windows than most because I sold for Sears age's ago, it paid for Grad School at UMD. No jokes, I'm obviously not an English major but you can tell that from my posts
From an article in Replacement Contractor Online:
"When directly asked by REPLACEMENT CONTRACTOR to respond to the charge that they practice bait-and-switch tactics and are deceiving consumers with their advertising, executives from three major low-price companies firmly denied it. “Our $185 window is the one we walk in the home with,” says Gardner, of Clear Choice."
"In fact, the low-price window is always available to customers. But it's a generic double-hung window that comes with no insulating gas, no low-E coating, no capping, nor any of the features typically included as part of the price of a vinyl replacement window that more typically sells for anywhere from $450 to $700. These add-ons must be — and nine times out of 10, are — ordered by the homeowner."
“I would guess that 10% to 15% of our windows are sold at $189,” offers Whitworth, CEO of Window World, Inc. "
"And though the price in Window World advertising is “$189 installed,” that installation would have to be relatively primitive, since a separate 'Miscellaneous' portion of the Window World price sheet lists various extra charges including sill or jamb repair ($45), sill or jamb replacement ($125), custom exterior trim ($50), etc. In addition, there is a “measuring and landfill disposal fee” of $100 for the total job."
"Clearly, while some portion of the windows sold by Window World, Clear Choice, and Window Depot USA are sold at their advertised price, the great majority are not. “If you want to make money in this business, you can't live on $185,” concedes Clear Choice dealer Cassidy."
"Traditional window companies wonder about the quality of an installation that takes half as much time. “You're pulling out the trim stops, pushing in four screws, you caulk it up and go,” notes Talmon, of Larmco Windows. "
"To make sufficient margin on the low-price sale, Kelly, who was paying his regular installers an average of $70 per opening, needed to find subcontractors who would install for half that. He couldn't. I interviewed a lot of folks I could pay $35 to, like a lot of the low-price,” he says. “But I couldn't feel good about putting them out there with my name attached.” Ultimately, he ended up using his regular installation crews — “they'd just change out their hats and shirts” — at their regular rates. That cut his already “razor-thin” margins to unsustainable levels."
So the $189 window is something akin to the Alside Centurion window. Something nobody but the cheapest skinflint on the face of the Earth would buy and in fact 85%-90% of the people who are shown it decide to either go with something else and/or opt for a higher level of service and/or window quality. To me this is a very glaring example of bait and switch. I find it incredibly hypocritical that anyone can condone these tactics but abhor "Tin Man" in the same breath. The question is, as a consumer or industry professional, one either supports deceptive tactics and the businesses that emply them or you don't. My observation is those who support one tactic and not the other only do so because one has a greater impact on their bottom line, one way or another.
Personally, I don't support either. But that's just me.
Personally, I don't support either. But that's just me.
Window Worlds in the your area is using Alside Excaliber and it's darn good window. Again, I puchased from Clear Choice. At the end the of the day you get more and pay less. There is no bait and switch. Why make a customer buy an automatic transmission if they don't want or can't afford it. Why make them buy leather seats or a V8 engine if they want a V6? It's all about options and customers have the right choose. It's their money.