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 Post subject: Schuco question
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:11 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:58 pm
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I am having Schuco windows put in my home and some are already complete. I have a question for the experts and anyone else that has Schuco windows:

When I tilt the window sash in and look at the bottom seam where the glass meets the vinyl, there are gaps in the corners of many of my windows between the vinyl and the glass, but not all. I would say the gap appears so far on 6 out of 10 windows, some more evident than others.
Basically the seam between the two is not consistent. It looks as if the vinyl is pulling apart from the glass, especially in the corners. The installers admitted they saw the same thing on their last install and are trying to determine if there is a manufacturing issue/defect/etc... I would hate to have a gap that could theoretically fill with water/etc.. considering this is the side of the window exposed to the outside elements.

Anyone see this before? If so, should I be concerned?

Thanks in advance!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:26 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
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I never saw that, but, if I were you, I'd find out right away what they're going to do about it, especially if it IS a defect. Any gap = leakage, right??


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:58 pm
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Location: Northern & Central Illinois, Chicago suburbs
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The glass is wet glazed in with silicone, so there is no place for water to get in.
The gap may be from excess silicone in the corners, or even from the weld on the inside of the sash holding it out slightly. If this is only a small gap, then it is only cosmetic and nothing to worry about.
To be sure, tell your installers what I said and have them look at it again to confirm it's not something worse.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:53 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:58 pm
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Thank you for your responses.

Some of the windows have a clear (silicone???) glob in the corners which just might have pushed the vinyl away from the glass. If it is just a cosmetic problem then I won't worry about it. However, on some windows when the installer slid a credit card along the glass and the edge of the vinyl the gap is large enough in the corners for the credit card to go in between the glass and the vinyl. This doesn't seem right, but the installer showed me weep holes on the bottom of the window and said I shouldn't have a problem.

I have seen cutaways of the Schuco frame, but not the window itself. If water went down the corner of the window is the installer correct that it will exit through the weep holes?

Should I be concerned?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:53 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
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When I sold Schuco's, I had a cutaway with a glass-pack in it, and you could see how it is an independant unit. The extrusions have a "fin" along the glass pack on the inside of the sash that holds it slightly away from the vinyl frame. Picture a strong wind blowing against the glass, and you'd see how that fin helps seal the window with exterior pressure. I didn't understand your original post, but I'm sure that this is normal. The Schuco glass-pack, with the TPS seal is something pretty extraordinary, and the extrusion itself is really well engineered for strength AND performance.
Believeme, I love the windows I sell, I think they're right up there, but when I buy a house, I'll have Schuco windows, as long as some rep doesn't try to beat me up!!! lol.... :roll:
Of course, I'll be in Peoria by then, so I'll have to see who I can coax down from Chicago to hook me up!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:23 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:58 pm
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Window4U (IL) wrote:
The glass is wet glazed in with silicone, so there is no place for water to get in.


the picture on this link provides a visual of my issue (I realize this isn't a schuco window but still gives a good picture)
http://www.milgard.com/_img/getting-started/img-care-and-maintenance-weep.gif

I took a water dropper and dropped water on the window, just like in the linked picture I provided. In the corner the water enters between the glass and vinyl relatively easily, which has me concerned especially considering Window4U's comments above indicating there is no place for water to get in. It also did not exit the weep hole when I did the test. As a matter of fact, I tilted the window and the water came spilling out of the inside of the window.

Is the Schuco window constructed in a similar manner to the window in the picture? Meaning, if water enters between the glass and vinyl (as shown in the picture), it should exit through the weep holes?

Water will definitely enter a large majority of my windows in the manner described in my post and the picture above. It appears that even if it does enter it will remain on the external portion of the window. However, should I still be concerned about mold/mildew/etc... with water sitting in that section of the windows?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:31 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:58 pm
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Had some decent rain recently and most of the windows had no problems. A few took water in as I expected with the situation described above.

One window had so much water in it that when I opened it there was a huge puddle on the sill and water still was dripping out of the weep hole.

I can't say that I am happy with the idea that water is entering the window, but at least I know the weep hole is working correctly.

After having the windows in for a few weeks my initial review of the Schuco windows is mixed. A few of the windows have poor craftsmanship. The weld seems on the outside frame aren't joined in some places, inside seems aren't visibly attractive (have almost a burnt looking shriveled look to some of them) the grids inside some windows aren't level(contractor is having the non-level grid windows replaced) and one of the windows had drill bit marks on the top where someone miss drilled the holes for the locks (this sash is being replaced)

I may be too critical, but some of the windows I received had poor finish work compared to others installed in my home. If these are the best quality windows as represented by many of the experts on this forum I would hate to see what the poor quality windows look like.

My only other gripe is that I lost approximately 3 1/2 inches(width) of glass in comparison to my old windows. The news windows look smaller. Not a big deal and I don't notice it as much now, but I think this is definitely something the salesperson should make people aware of. When I first became aware of it on my own it didn't sit well with me. If it was discussed prior to the install I would have been prepared. Funny thing is when I was paying I overheard another customer talking to the office manager about that very same concern.

Now to the positives. The windows are very quiet compared to my previous double paned windows. My wife and I love this benefit b/c our house backs to a road with light traffic. The windows that seem to be manufactured well are very nice!!! I just wish they all were this quality.

The installers did a very nice job. The installed windows and wrap look great. They did a thorough job on the install but still have a little more work to do correcting some wrongly ordered windows.

Most of the windows open and close very nicely.

I am going to try to post some pics of my concerns.


Last edited by dballs on Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:16 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
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You're not being too critical. Schuco windows are supposedly the best in the industry, AND they're not cheap. When you hear "you get what you pay for," don't you actually want what you paid for?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:44 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Alright time for class folks. First of all I'm going to reference some pictures to show you how the Schuco window drains. I'll attach a link to a photo gallery that will have seven linked pictures on it. The hooked together images will be numbered 1-7 starting in the upper left corner as #1. Then moving right and then down to the second row. I know you can all get that straight. The URL is at the bottom of this page.



First picture is the bottom of a Schuco window on the exterior side. You can see the weep hole covers snapped into the bottom. I've removed the far cover revealing the hole.

The second picture is the weep hole cover taken out of the opening. It has a little flap that must move freely. Sometimes it gets caulk or concrete splashed in side this cover and stops the flap from moving freely. So make sure the flap is moving freely so water can run out with no restrictions. You can also gently pry it out and clean it to make sure. If you find it's working OK then remove it anyway and go to picture number three.

The third picture has the cover removed from the weep hole. I've inserted a seven inch piece of copper 12 gauge wire in this hole sliding it straight back along the bottom. You go through the first chamber into the second chamber. Just wiggle the wire side to side making sure the opening is clear of any debris. I like to pour water inside the sill while doing this. It will wash any particles out of the way. You can also use canned air for your computer to blow it out of the way. Do this to both sides and make sure they are clear. Then snap the covers back in place.

Picture number four is the bottom of the lower sash of a double hung unit. You can see I'm pointing to a little hole under the bulb seal. There are two holes, one on each side of the sash. These holes are only there as a safety measure in case water penetrates the sash. This is not where the water comes out during a rain storm.

Pictures number five and six show the bottom of the double hung with the lower sash removed. You can see the opening under the upper sash is where the water goes in during the rain. It goes in behind the upper sash stops and into the sills weeping system. It will also go in the opening in Picture Number Seven. This is the opening a long side the lower sash. The water should never pool up inside the window. If it does then somethings wrong. You will want to contact your installer and make him aware of the problem.

It's really easy to clean these out. Every window manufacturer has these and they all have this problem. I can't think of any window I haven't had to do this on. I hope this makes it easier to understand.

http://www.installationmastersinc.com/pages/7/index.htm


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:05 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:58 pm
Posts: 10
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Guy,

Thank you for the additional information. I guess I have a problem with at least 10 of my 20+ installed Schuco windows, though my installation company doesn't seem to think so.

You say:
"These holes are only there as a safety measure in case water penetrates the sash. This is not where the water comes out during a rain storm."

Well, we had a major rain storm and I had water coming out those holes on many of my windows. First noticed the puddle of water below the sash when opening the window and then saw water continually drip out of the weep hole when the sash was raised. The windows that had this occur were the same windows I described above with large gaps in the corners between the glass and the vinyl.

I have discussed the issue with the installation company and they say the windows are not defective and point to the fact that the holes in the bottom of the window are draining the water as designed. They did offer to put a bead of silicone in the gaps to attempt to correct the issue but I am concerned that might just be a short term solution to a real problem!!!

What do I do??? I am confused. Who is right?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:32 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Thill, The holes in the bottom of the sash will only drain if you get water between the glass and the frame. This means it has to get past the glazing material. So if this is happening then your seal around the window is leaking somewhere. If you have water puddling in the sill it may flow over and get caught up in these holes. When you lift the sash the water will drain out like it was in there. I'd have them seal the outside of the glass with silicone to be safe. Also check those flaps on your weep covers and make sure there's nothing in the way. Good Luck!!!


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 Post subject: Reply
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:48 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Illinois
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dballs

You mentioned that you would post some close up photos... can you? From what you are describing it sounds like there is a gap on the outside of the window where the glass is wet glazed to the sash. Is this correct? When you mentioned the welds not being joined... this I would like to see or are you referring to the internal glazing beads not lining up flush? If this is the case, then it sounds like the fusion welds on those sashes were not properly cleaned before the glass pack was installed. If this is what you are saying... than this IS a manufacture defect. EVERY company has it happen on occasion. Post pics or email them... that's the best way to get this confirmed. Schuco will stand behind the product.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:14 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:58 pm
Posts: 10
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Here are some pics of my issues with Schuco

Good(left) and bad(right) window side by side, the right definitely looks bad compared to the left. How does this get past quality control?
Image
Larger image click here: http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b295/pingisik/1.jpg

Drill bit hole in window sash (being replaced, and to the installer's credit, they found it before I ever saw it and told me they were getting it replaced)
Image

Variable gap between glass and vinyl, doesn't seem right to me but I am "assured" it is ok despite the fact that I have water getting in them
Image
Larger/clearer image click here: http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b295/pingisik/5.jpg See how tight the seem is in the middle of the sash and how it gradually gets bigger as it heads toward the corner.


Gap in corner that lets water in, once again, seem b/t glass and vinyl not consistent across the window
Image
Larger/clearer image click here: http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b295/pingisik/6.jpg

Water on sill, along with actual drip marks from water dripping from the raised sash. There was actually a puddle there when I opened it the other day. Today there is water all along the edge of that sill and still drips from the weep hole in the sash
Image
Larger/clearer image click here: http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b295/pingisik/7.jpg

Corner of inside window (many of my windows look like this, some worse than others) doesn't look very nice to me, especially considering how nice the actual sash welds are finished
Image

These are just some of my issues and these aren't the worst windows either, some gaps are even bigger. I just wanted to get some pics up quickly so I could get some good feedback. I have grids that aren't level(being replaced), bottom sashes that caught on top sash security pop outs that made the window unable to close basically pulling the top sash down when the bottom sash was closed, etc...

Am I being too critical here? If so, I sincerely want people to let me know. I just don't understand how stuff like this leaves the manufacturing facility. Are there no quality checks? I had the impression that Schuco was one of the best windows out there. What do the bad windows look like? Don't get me wrong, the Schuco windows that appear to be right, are SUPER NICE. I am not bashing Schuco windows. I just want to know if I have some defective windows or if I am being too critical.

Is my leaking water/gap b/t the glass and vinyl issue a concern? The water isn't getting inside my home, but it still doesn't seem like a good idea for it to be entering through those gaps either.

Schuco experts please let me know!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:00 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
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OK! I haven't read this whole thing, word for word, but; #1, yes, those corner seams that are coming apart, that drill bit hole, etc, not good. Bad stuff.
Now, as far as the glass pack and the sash; When I sold Schuco's, we had a cross cut of a Schuco sash. In other words, a sash, cut in half, with the TPS seal appliesd where the glass pack was cut, so it was like a completely sealed glasspack. That slides right into the sash, and the glazing strips snap in. The glazing strips just press against the glass, without any discernable "seal." just a vinyl strip pressed against the glass, right? So it stands to reason that water could sep past that and into the sash, between the frame and the glas pack. The sash itself has weep holes in it to drain water (which to me is admitting water will get into the sash) but, it doesn't penetrate the glass pack, and it should drain through those holes.
Personally, I don't want water in my sash, but I'm no engineer, right?


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 Post subject: Reply
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:32 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Illinois
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dballs-
Thanks for the pics.. it's what I thought. If you look at the 3rd and 4th photos you can actually see where the weld was not cleaned enough before the glass was installed therefore keeping the wet glazing (silicone) from making proper contact between the glass and the sash rail. I would request to have the lower sashes replaced on the units that are accepting water into the rail. You bought a great product... but sometimes things happen during manufacturing. I am absolutely certain that Schuco will stand behind it.

Hipcat-
You are correct that the glasspack is sealed by itself... but it is also wet-glazed to the sash rail on the outside. The vinyl snap-in glazing bead is on the inside. The cutaways for presentation purposes are not wet-glazed. There are weep holes in just about every sash on the market but it's for the "what-if" and to ventilate.

Gilligan10-Obtuse10-Exfen(ten)-
Give it a rest already. Are you 10? The site administrators will keep removing your names as fast as you create them.


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