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 Post subject: Jamb-less window installation
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:56 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:00 am
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Hi, I'm looking for some advise on some Certainteed Bryn Mawr 2 casement windows I just had installed.
I have a 60+ yr old limestone house and when the old steel windows were removed it was discovered that I had no vertical jambs. The installer did not put any in and also did not secure the window vertically whatsoever. Bcs the instructions from Certainteed say that you must have jambs, I contacted one the engineers at the company. He told me that you absolutely must have vertical jambs because that is the primary support for the window and that you must have a minimum of 3 screws on each side vertically securing the window otherwise the window will eventually bow. Also, when I do start to have problems he said that Certainteed will see that they haven't been installed properly and my warranty will be voided. When I informed the installer of this, his reply was that engineers think too much and they don't know how to install windows in the real world.
I'm already experiencing some problems: windows stick at ~ 80 degrees when opening, some very difficult to close (one is off square by 3/4").
My question is this: is there ever a situation where these windows can be secured only to the sill and header, not vertically secured? Will the windows be damaged if they are uninstalled and then reinstalled properly?
Also, does anyone know the ballpark price for these windows- not including installation? I have 2 sizes: 212, 176 united inches (dual casements) and 1 double hung 115 UI.
Your advice is greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Mike


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:41 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:34 pm
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He could have used a hammer drill and tap cons to secure the sides of the windows. Shimmed and secured properly you should have no problems. There is no excuse for a window to be out of square especially a casement. They will never operate properly if not square.
Option 2
The openings could have been buck framed with 1x wood. The windows made smaller and installed. Then new interior casing and returns applied.
This is a more expensive installation.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:15 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:00 am
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Thanks handyman19619.
One thing that I forgot to mention (I thought of it when I read your first option) is that there is ~ 1.5 inch gap (seems to run the length of the house) between the outer limestone and the inner clay brick. This is where the vertical side of the window is resting so I'm not sure if they would have been able to secure without putting something in there.
Also, I think that I may have msicalculated UI wrong, I added up all four sides. Are you supposed to add just the length and height?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:27 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:34 pm
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the windows still could have been secured with tapcons.
Also the UI is width plus height and no I dont know what Bryn Mar should cost. Answer me this did he do any coil work or were the windows just caulked to the brick? Was this a company or an individual you bought from?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:13 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:00 am
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Windows were just caulked (with textured caulk to look like mortar) to the brick. He filled in the gaps with fiberglass insulation and caulked over, no backing or anything. This was another problem that I raised with them. Since the outside is limestone it isn't a straight edge and in some places there are gaps almost 1.5 inches wide. We had actually agreed on filling in with mortar (seemed like the best idea to me at the time) but they used caulk to look like mortar.
What's coil work? I talked with them today and they agreed to come out to fix everything (I haven't paid the balance yet). Maybe I should have them do this? Also, I think that I'm going to pay another window company to come out and tell me exactly what needs to be done for the job to be right so that I know and make sure it gets done. If you're in the area (West Chicago suburbs) and are interested, let me know.
It was a small company that did the install. They've been around for more than 25 years, they're local and were recommended to me by another contractor that did work on my house. I can't figure it out. They also messed up some glass block in the basement (didn't remove the old frame and didn't seal the outside whatsoever). Installed the glass block on the inside of the old window frame (they're not even sealed to the concrete on the inside - they're sealed to drywall and plaster on the inside - no sealing at all outside).
This has been such a frustrating experience. I'm afraid to even have them come back to "fix" what they did but I'm not sure if I have a choice legally, I think I have to give them an opportunity to right their wrongs. I should also probably check with a lawyer to make sure.
Thanks, Mike


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:31 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:34 pm
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These Guys are hacks I cant believe what you just told me.
I am nowhere near you but the are people on this site who are.
Yes you should give them a chance to make it right but from what you told me about the way they installed, finished the exterior, and the way the glass block was installed I dont think they even have a clue how to do it right.
Make sure you take names, register your complaints in writing, and get liscense and insurance info.(I usually would never go this far but you got ripped off and I dont even have to see a picture to know it)
Give me a break 1 1/2" of caulk around a window good grief.
Possibly you can get a real installer or company to come out and redo the job right with new windows give them the old ones back and get a refund.
I bet they look real sweet inside to.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:31 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:00 am
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I think you're right, I'm going to get someone else out here and talk to that lawyer. I can't imagine what kind of patch job they have in mind - 2 x 4's covering the whole window with caulk over it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:01 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 81
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Believe it or not I have seen that 1 b4 With cheap caulk at that and not even paintable caulk. Do not worry anything they have done can be fixed by someone with expierence.
AFTER THEY PICK THEMSELVES UP OFF THE GROUND FROM LAUGHING SO HARD AT WHAT THE OTHER GUYS DID.
Seriously though you still have to give the company a chance to correct the problems of the first installer. It is entirely possible they just hired the guy and it was his first job and they didnt know.
They may have very good installers and this wasnt one of them. You owe them a chance to solve the problem. JUst dont let them do athing to your home unless they explain exactly what they are going to do and you are there watching everything.
I dont think this will work but it is still something you should do. If you see them break out the 2x4s I think you will know what to do.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:28 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:00 am
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Unfortunately, this guy is their ONLY installer. He's not a one man show though, he brings two others (they actually did better than him but he's the one that directs everything) but if this company does anything then it is the same guy with his helpers that will come back.
Also, they gave me lists with hundreds of installs (I checked out several and they looked fine) that they did and the guy told me he's been doing this for more than 20 years (he does all the company's installs). The only thing I can think of is that he hasn't done a stone house that had 60 year old windows (steel removal, no jambs), didn't calculate the time right, ran into some unexpected problems and just gave up and tried to get away with a crap job. It was supposed to take 2 days, it took 3 days. Maybe he had a lot of other installs to get to and he just wasn't going to take the time to do it right and he thought he could get away with it. I really don't know the reasons but the results cry foul.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:37 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:53 am
Posts: 37
Location: Massachussetts
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He is probably paid "by the piece" as opposed to "by the hour".
Alot of subs are paid that way. Some companies won't budge in paying their subs extra when they come across these situations- even though it takes 2-3 times as long to replace. Because of this, the sub will sometimes cut corners to save time.
He may very well be able to fix it, but the general contractor won't pay him what the job is worth.
And in this business...you get what you pay for!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:55 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:00 am
Posts: 6
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I'm not sure what his arrangement is but the installer did come out and get a preview of what was involved. He knew before he took the job.
Also, at ~ $1000 per window, I thought I was paying good money to have it done right and that is what I was most interested in, having it done once and right.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:32 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:53 am
Posts: 37
Location: Massachussetts
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I haven't seen the job but $1,000 per window sounds more than reasonable.
I wish you luck- please keep us informed.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:15 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 81
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Mass where did you come from $1000 per window is ridiculous.
You must be a Sears salesman.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:19 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:58 pm
Posts: 1335
Location: Northern & Central Illinois, Chicago suburbs
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handyman19619 wrote:
Mass where did you come from $1000 per window is ridiculous.
You must be a Sears salesman.


I don't think you could get a double casement for $1000 from Sears. A good quality twin casement for $1000 installed is not out of line at all.


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