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 Post subject: Apex/alside 8000 Signature vs. Excalibur Alside
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:00 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:38 pm
Posts: 4
Location: KY
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Dear All;

I have a bit a dilemma. I was approached to use my house as a selling site for Mengel Exteriors' windows, inturn for reduced replacement windows. The first seller, brought materials for the Apex (Mengel) 8000 Signature "Pinch-Point Fusion-Welded" triple glass windows for 60% off. The person who came to the next appointment, changed the offer to Alside's Excalibur "fusion-welded vinyl" double glass windows for 30% off but with free installation and a life time limited warrantee.

I have a brick house, with original wooden windows. What do the experts say?


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 Post subject: Re: Apex/alside 8000 Signature vs. Excalibur Alside
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:34 am 

Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:31 am
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I realize you posted this a few years ago but I haven't found much on Apex Energy Solutions and have also been aproached by them to use our house as a selling site. I'm not sure what to think of the whole deal. Did you end up getting your windows from them? If so do you like them was it everything they said it would be? Any insight you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Darcie


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 Post subject: Re: Apex/alside 8000 Signature vs. Excalibur Alside
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:41 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:51 pm
Posts: 1579
Location: Northern,Virginia
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This type of marketing is just a scam. They usually inflate the price by 60% and then offer a huge discount to use your home as a "Model Home" but, only if you sign a contract "Today". This slimey tactic was used so effectively in the State of Maryland that, they actually have a law on the books prohibiting it's use.


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 Post subject: Re: Apex/alside 8000 Signature vs. Excalibur Alside
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:03 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
Posts: 3564
Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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Rent the movie "Tin Men" before you get lulled into a discount scheme like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Apex/alside 8000 Signature vs. Excalibur Alside
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:20 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:48 pm
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No, these guys really work a number.

If Champion bid the home the cost would be 34,000 and if Sears bid the home the cost is 32,000 and with our marketing plan you will only pay $18,000.

The pros say walk.

The local guys say walk.

This local guy says:
Excaliber pushed by Americas' Windows are the same cost as Gorell 5155 and for what you will pay Apex( Mengel just kept the sunrooms and sold the window distributor to Apex energy solutions out of Cincy which has 3 BBB hits here with 1 specifically on their selling practices) you can probably get the Softlite LS for around the same $. :mrgreen:

P.S. I have a copy of Tin Men that you can borrow.


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 Post subject: Re: Apex/alside 8000 Signature vs. Excalibur Alside
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:09 pm 

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:52 pm
Posts: 1340
Location: SE PA & NJ; CT
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Yep, they know there is a new one born every day.


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 Post subject: Re: Apex/alside 8000 Signature vs. Excalibur Alside
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:45 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:58 pm
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I recently stumbled across this chat board and found it necessary to reply to some of the incorrect and negative comments that have been posted. First of all, the marketing approach that Apex Energy Solutions uses is not a scam! It is actually an unconventional, trademarked marketing approach called Flipside Marketing. It's a marketing approach that uses homes in certain neighborhoods to advertize their products instead of spending thousands of dollars on conventional advertizing that drives up the price of replacement windows considerably. This enables them to sell a high end triple paned window for much less than their competition. This marketing approach has even won a national award from Window and Door magazine. I've never heard of a scam winning a national award from one of the largest magazine in this industry! Also the window that they are using is far superior to the Gorrell window or the Excalibur in my opinion. Having the lowest U factors and SHGC in the industry! It's the 8000 Signature Series from Alside. It is a dealer exclusive window. It's also a fact that they have an A+ rating with the BBB and have been on the honor roll with Angie's List. They are also one of the largest accounts in the nation that sells Alside products and are highly respected by not only Alside but in the community for their donations to Habitat for Humanity!! It is unfortunate that people or competitors can smear a companies good name on chat boards like this without a shred of evidence. Buy the way, all of this information is researchable on the internet and their web site. Do yourself a favor. When buying windows, base your decision on the facts!! And not heresay or conjecture that is totally based on fiction.


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 Post subject: Re: Apex/alside 8000 Signature vs. Excalibur Alside
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:19 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
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Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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What the is CPD # (Certified product directory number) on that window with the best U-Factors and SHGC in the industry.

BTW...since when was there a "best" SHGC number anyway?

Since when is the Internet of a companies website the source of "facts"?

Since when is a U-Factor of 0.19 the best in the industry?

Just talking about the facts my friend.


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 Post subject: Re: Apex/alside 8000 Signature vs. Excalibur Alside
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:48 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:58 pm
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Well, here are your answers.
1)If you want the CPD # for the 8000 Series window it can be obtained through Alside. The U factor of the window will change based on the style of window.

2) You can have one of the best SHGC on a window. It is determinded on what type of glass that you use along with the type of LowE that is on the window and a couple of other factors. Whether you live in a southern climate or a northern climate. I challenge you to find a better SHGC than the 8000 can offer.

3) As far as the internet goes it is one of the best ways to find creditable information on a company if you know where to look for it and not listen to opinions that aren't based on fact. You can check the BBB and Angie's List along with other reporting agentcies through the internet. And true, most companies web sites are self serving. But there's has the actual article that was published in Window and Door Magazine for all to read along with a technical site that gives you all the information on all their products so you can compare theirs to the competition.

4) The U factor of .19 is an NFRC average on a Double Hung. That number goes even lower on different styles. And if you look at the COG on the 8000 Series, which is will be a constant number, sustains a U factor of 0.10. Try to find one lower than that my friend!


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 Post subject: Re: Apex/alside 8000 Signature vs. Excalibur Alside
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:24 am 
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I already looked up the information in question and welcome you to post a CPD # for other interested consumers to research.

On your SHGC question, you haven't answered the question. What makes the SHGC on the 8000 the best. The best SHGC for a home in Texas is not the same for a window in Minnesota. The SHGC on a triple pane krypton 8000 series window is 0.24 while the U-Factor is 0.19. I can think of 3 windows off the top of my head that have lower U-Factors while having higher SHGC. That would be the better combination for a home in an area with a more dominant heating season than your 8000 series window. That is not a debatable statement and your assertions are unfortunately incorrect.

The BBB is a valuable resource for evaluating a companies record. Angie's List is an advertising driven organization and many of the reports that are posted could certainly be questioned. Opinions are valuable if they are based in unbiased observations and without prejudice of self-serving motivations. Window and Door magazine is an advertising driven publication as well and their are contracted articles in most publications. A window with a U-Factor of 0.19 (in a double hung) is certainly not groundbreaking news and I would be suspect of any article that profiled a windows who's performance doesn't even place it in any sort of exclusive category.

Lets keep the discussion about double hungs because they are the most commonly found window in the US and most windows will have superior performance in a casement or awning.

We don't typically discuss COG (Center of Glass for those not sure what that means) because they are unrepresentative of overall window performance. If the NFRC (the evaluator of window performance) thought it was pertinent, I am sure they would have included it in their labeling and evaluation data. Are we installing just the COG or the entire window? Shouldn't we therefore be more concerned with Total Unit U-Factor? The answer is COG is worthless for window evaluation. A great COG with a poorly designed frame will not perform as a unit.

Again, I will go back to your total unit U-Factor on the window that you obviously sell...0.19. Good, but not the greatest by any means. Your SHGC is to low for a home in some of the Northern Climates as well. Your air leakage rate (0.10) is average at best as well. If you are going to claim to be the best, at least have the data to back it up.

I would rather have a window with a lower U-Factor, higher SHGC, and lower Air infiltration. There are plenty that fit that bill and have the data to back it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Apex/alside 8000 Signature vs. Excalibur Alside
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:39 am 
an air infiltration number of .10 is certianly nothing to write home about a COF(center of glass) is meaningless in my opinion and the NFRC rates a window based on "the whole window" so why even mention COF?
a U-factor of .19 is ok but certainly not the best.
how is the enginnering of this particular window;will the performance numbers be the same in 2 or 3 years?
the BBB is also nothing i put too much emphasis on,although it does'nt hurt.


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 Post subject: Re: Apex/alside 8000 Signature vs. Excalibur Alside
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:42 am 
one last thing,a SHGC is not nearly as important as the u-factor. you can not base a window on shgc ,at least in the northeast a SHGC of .25 - .30 is just fine. u-factor of course,the lower the better.


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 Post subject: Re: Apex/alside 8000 Signature vs. Excalibur Alside
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:38 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:58 pm
Posts: 3
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That was alot of info that really didn't cover much. Sounds like you are more concerned in winning an arguement based on opinions, rather than stateing the researchable facts.I see you conveniently left out the two or three windows that perform better. Do you have this info so it can be researched? And remember, I'm challanging you to find a window that is an all around better performer!


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 Post subject: Re: Apex/alside 8000 Signature vs. Excalibur Alside
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:29 pm 
OKNA
GORELL
PARK Avenue
Soft Lite elements

would you like a few more???


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 Post subject: Re: Apex/alside 8000 Signature vs. Excalibur Alside
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 pm
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Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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phuber wrote:
That was alot of info that really didn't cover much. Sounds like you are more concerned in winning an arguement based on opinions, rather than stateing the researchable facts.I see you conveniently left out the two or three windows that perform better. Do you have this info so it can be researched? And remember, I'm challanging you to find a window that is an all around better performer!


I am sorry that my response was not clear enough for you but I cannot state it any clearer. Lets try this again....a better window for an area of the country that has a more heating dominated season would be a window with a better U-Factor (Soft-Lite Imperial LS/ Elements/Bainbridge/Barrington, Gorell, Okna, Sunrise) all have windows with lower U-factors and higher SHGC numbers. If you are located in the Southern US than yes, I lower SHGC number is favorable. That can easily be had in any of the windows listed above by adding another coat of Low-e and dropping the SHGC number into the low 20's or high teens.

There is no real challenge....all of the windows listed above are better performers and much better on the air infiltration side of things (a fact you chose not to address).


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