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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:03 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:11 am
Posts: 79
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"My company has been using Super Spacer for close to 9 years without a seal failure. I know other window manufacturers who use Super Spacer and none of them has ever had a seal failure either."

Don, how do you know, there is desiccants in Super Spacer that would hide the fact.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:08 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:20 am
Posts: 96
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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It doesn't go through the glass...if it is lost it is because of a failure in the seal system.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:15 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:11 am
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WindDoze, the only thing i could find on the internet is that Helium and Hydrogen atoms can pass through glass.

My Helium filled balloons always go flat on me.... :(


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 Post subject: Reply
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:53 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Illinois
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Gas loss is through the seals... not through the glass. Glass is impermiable to most gases (including Argon and Krypton) but Helium, Hydrogen, Neon and a few others can diffuse through thin walled glass given extremely high temperatures and differential pressures. The best example I can think of to prove this is that incandescent and florescent light bulbs are filled with Argon and have extremely thin glass. The Argon is used to insulate and create a lower bulb temperature while preventing oxidation of the metal filament.

Some IGUs in the 1960's were made with fused or soldered seals that did not need desiccants but these are no longer on the market. PIB is the only sealant used today with negligable differences in permeation rates among argon, nitrogen and oxygen. When applied properly along with a good continuous secondary seal it is possible to eliminate gas loss and the need for large amounts of desiccant if the unit is completely filled in the first place.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:49 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Peoria, IL
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I just want to know a fraction of the things you know, fenex.... :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:33 am 
"Don, how do you know, there is desiccants in Super Spacer that would hide the fact."

Reasearcher, I don't know that much about Schuco windows and TPS spacers, but the other 99% of insulated glass made in this country has a dessicant content.

DAN "not Don"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:46 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:11 am
Posts: 79
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Sorry i got your name wrong Dan.

Yes, the other 99% of insulated glass made in this country has a desiccant content and it is probably closer to 99.999%. It has been said here that desiccant is used to hide seal failure because it can. The PIB/Silicone Stainless spacer for example has a very low seal failure according to a SIGMA Study. There study showed that at 10 years, this spacer had a .1% failure rate and at 20 years a .5% failure rate. To put this into perspective, this means on average that if i had 1000 windows with this spacer in my home, one would fail when these windows got to be 10 years old and 5 at 20 years. So if my home has 20 windows, what are the chances of one failing in 20 years? Well math says 1 in 50, that means i would have to go to 50 homes that have 20 windows before i would find 1 seal failure. And yes there is a good amount of desiccant in these spacers, more that necessary. Is it there intention to hide seal failure? No one knows except those that do it. It is like saying tires are made of rubber because rubber tires protects me from lightning.


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 Post subject: Reply
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:03 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Illinois
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Researcher

There are many more testing studies done than you will find on the internet. These studies are done by government sponsored labs as well as independent manufactures. Sigma is a group of manufacturers. They release information based upon the required task and testing measures vary greatly from one testing group to another. There is NO guesswork to be done on why desiccants are put in spacers... it serves only one purpose... to absorb moisture. The studies you haven't found show SIGMA finding 4-10% seal failures by actually cutting open spacers and finding desiccant saturation in metal spacers. Now that would be 40-100 of the 1000 windows that you paid good money for that would be experiencing deteriorating performance over time and you would not know it. Dig a little deeper and you will see what I mean.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:27 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:11 am
Posts: 79
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<<"The studies you haven't found show SIGMA finding 4-10% seal failures by actually cutting open spacers and finding desiccant saturation in metal spacers. Now that would be 40-100 of the 1000 windows that you paid good money for that would be experiencing deteriorating performance over time and you would not know it. Dig a little deeper and you will see what I mean.">>

Hi FenEx,

Yes, desiccant's only purpose is to absorb moisture, that is why TPS spacer uses a little of it, to absorb the small amount of moisture that may remain after it is assembled. Now, my post was about the PIB/Silicone Stainless spacer, that very low failure rate i posted is based on the PIB/Silicone Stainless spacer, it is a very good spacer and is used in many windows and i think that those that read this forum should know this. That 4% failure rate you posted above pertains to other spacers, not the PIB/Silicone Stainless spacer. Besides that, you did not mention how many years it took before the failure rate reached 4% or how many years it took to reach 10%, those that read that, do not the complete picture. The report says it took a little over 10 years before there was a 4% failure rate and at 15 years the failure rate is about 9.6%.


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 Post subject: spacer
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:42 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:02 pm
Posts: 6
Location: D.C. METROPOLITAN AREA
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TPS

Thermo Plastic Spacer [SCHUCO HIGH PERFORMANCE WINDOWS] stands for the ultimate in "Warm Edge" insulating glass technology replacing the highly conductive metal spacer. SCHUCO's unique Edge deletion process ensures that the glass is "sanded" away so that the TPS sealant will bond tightly to the glass. It is similar to sanding a painted wood surface before repainting. Testing has proven that failure to perform edge deletion on Low-E coated glass can create conditions for oxidation due to exposure to moisture and may also cause a seal failure.

TPS IG units have passed the certifacation requirements of the IGCC for compliance with ASTM E773 and 774 Class CBA, and have passed applicable test requirements in over a dozen other countries.

Some TPS history

1974 Thermo Plastic edge seal developed
1988 TPS first used in automotive insulating glass (MERCEDES & BMW)
1994 First TPS manufacturing system (horizontal line)
1995 Vertical TPS line manufactured
1996 3 TPS lines running in Germany
1997 Over 30 TPS lines worldwide


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:36 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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The big thing that we need to remember is that "Edge Deletion" has really only been adopted by most everyone over the past few years. So to look at all these studies fairly is difficult at most. I think in the next ten years they will have a better handle on the gas loss in todays high quality glass. Where's Oberon? He's the glass genius we need to hear from. I'll shine the "Bat Light" in the air!! He'll be here!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:52 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:12 pm
Posts: 11
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A question.

Is there any kind of test a homeowner can conduct to get an idea if the argon has leaked? For example, windows sellers love to give the heat lamp demo to show how their windows block the heat from passing.

Could one rig up a tester with a heat lamp and test their windows once in a while to see if some allow more heat to pass through than others? Or could one use a magnifying glass to inspect around the spacers for moisture?

I realize one would need more sophisticated equipment to measure how much gas has leaked, but am wondering if there might be a way to tell if a window has significant leakage.

Or is it more a matter of just watching for moisture between the panes and if you've got moisture, then you don't got argon?

I have read a study which states that a loss of argon can lead to glass distortion, which could be noticable by a homeowner.

http://www.usglassmag.com/Door_and_Wind ... /argon.htm


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:59 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:53 am
Posts: 37
Location: Massachussetts
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you can purchase those bulbs at home depot


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:13 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:11 am
Posts: 79
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Nobody, As far as I know, the heat lamp demonstration is for the Low-E performance, it is the Low -E that reflects the radiant heat, not the the Argon.


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 Post subject: Reply
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:41 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Illinois
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The Low-E reflects much of the radiant heat but the Argon retards the transfer of the heat permitted through conduction. This is a primary reason why Argon is used in light bulbs... to reduce the surface temperature of the glass.


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