Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
Hello everyone:
Many of you were very helpful towards steering me towards selecting the Simonton 5500 sliders. They are now all installed and I am happy with them. I followed a new construction style approach (nail fin flange) and had siding replaced, so I followed the DuPont instructions for first putting up new Tyvek house wrap, then inserting the windows through the cut-out in the Tyvek (with Tyvek flaps on each vertical side), then DuPont flex-wrap for the sill membrane, then the window went in followed by proper flashing on the sides and head with straight-flash.
All I have done on the interior is to run a bead of caulk between bottom of window frame and the FlexWrap sill membrane. This is in accordance with DuPont instructions to form the back-dam feature. I also ran the caulk over the cedar shims that were used in some locations to shim up the window from the sill. I assume the trim carpenter will snap off any excess.
Now I need to know how to properly seal the interior. I have attached a picture. On most of the windows, there is enough clearance on the sides to insert either the Great Stuff straw (disposable can), or the tip of the Pro guns they make. However, with some of the windows, there is so little clearance, I don't think it will be possible to insert the straw or tip. I was thinking for these locations perhaps I could insert backer rod just to the point it clears the window frame and then caulk between the side of the Tyvek flap and the window frame. However, in these spots, obviously the air seal would be made more on the interior of the window, rather than back against the other side of the nail fin flange. Is backer rod/caulk ever used in this manner and is it proper to make the seal on this side of the window? (Hope that makes sense)
So, my questions would be:
1. do I even need foam or backer rod/caulk considering I have followed new construction window installation thoroughly and with all Tyvek, flashing, siding, etc., is this something to really worry about?
2. Should I use a combination of backer rod/caulk and foam - ie, backer rod/caulk in locations with little clearance and foam where I can insert the straw or gun?
Advice is appreciated. I need to get this done this weekend so my trim carpenter can trim out the windows for me.
Many of you were very helpful towards steering me towards selecting the Simonton 5500 sliders. They are now all installed and I am happy with them. I followed a new construction style approach (nail fin flange) and had siding replaced, so I followed the DuPont instructions for first putting up new Tyvek house wrap, then inserting the windows through the cut-out in the Tyvek (with Tyvek flaps on each vertical side), then DuPont flex-wrap for the sill membrane, then the window went in followed by proper flashing on the sides and head with straight-flash.
All I have done on the interior is to run a bead of caulk between bottom of window frame and the FlexWrap sill membrane. This is in accordance with DuPont instructions to form the back-dam feature. I also ran the caulk over the cedar shims that were used in some locations to shim up the window from the sill. I assume the trim carpenter will snap off any excess.
Now I need to know how to properly seal the interior. I have attached a picture. On most of the windows, there is enough clearance on the sides to insert either the Great Stuff straw (disposable can), or the tip of the Pro guns they make. However, with some of the windows, there is so little clearance, I don't think it will be possible to insert the straw or tip. I was thinking for these locations perhaps I could insert backer rod just to the point it clears the window frame and then caulk between the side of the Tyvek flap and the window frame. However, in these spots, obviously the air seal would be made more on the interior of the window, rather than back against the other side of the nail fin flange. Is backer rod/caulk ever used in this manner and is it proper to make the seal on this side of the window? (Hope that makes sense)
So, my questions would be:
1. do I even need foam or backer rod/caulk considering I have followed new construction window installation thoroughly and with all Tyvek, flashing, siding, etc., is this something to really worry about?
2. Should I use a combination of backer rod/caulk and foam - ie, backer rod/caulk in locations with little clearance and foam where I can insert the straw or gun?
Advice is appreciated. I need to get this done this weekend so my trim carpenter can trim out the windows for me.
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Re: Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
If you can't get the foam straw in there, just caulk and you should not really need backer rod on that small a gap.
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Re: Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
+1 to wow... Foam where you can, caulk where you can't.
Re: Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
Thank you.
For areas where I can't insert the foam gun or straw, do I just caulk between the Tyvek flap and the window frame? In other words, the caulk bead seal will be on the interior side of the window, briding the Tyvek flap to the frame, as opposed to back up against the back side of the nail fin flange where foam would seal.
Also, I notice the DuPont instructions for window installation in conjunction with Tyvek, recommends Todol or Selena foam. Is the Dow Great Stuff window and door foam on par with these brands they mention?
For areas where I can't insert the foam gun or straw, do I just caulk between the Tyvek flap and the window frame? In other words, the caulk bead seal will be on the interior side of the window, briding the Tyvek flap to the frame, as opposed to back up against the back side of the nail fin flange where foam would seal.
Also, I notice the DuPont instructions for window installation in conjunction with Tyvek, recommends Todol or Selena foam. Is the Dow Great Stuff window and door foam on par with these brands they mention?
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Re: Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
Window and Door specific foams are very similar. You should be fine with either.
Re: Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
Thanks everyone:
For areas where I can't insert the foam gun or straw, do I just caulk between the Tyvek flap and the window frame? In other words, the caulk bead seal will be on the interior side of the window, bridging the Tyvek flap to the frame, as opposed to back up against the back side of the nail fin flange where foam would seal. Is that correct?
For areas where I can't insert the foam gun or straw, do I just caulk between the Tyvek flap and the window frame? In other words, the caulk bead seal will be on the interior side of the window, bridging the Tyvek flap to the frame, as opposed to back up against the back side of the nail fin flange where foam would seal. Is that correct?
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Re: Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
IMO
Foam straw can be squeezed/hammered to fit into smaller voids
To avoid snapping straw at nozzle drag straw along with other hand
Wear gloves as the foam is hard to remove from skin
Put foam in sparingly, start at bottom work up (gravity)
I prefer two beads one back towards the fin and then wait 20 minutes or so and apply the second bead if needed
be careful if it gets on carpet etc.
lock the windows and don't put too much in to avoid bowing mainframe
If straw still doesn't fit then caulk it
I back up interior gap with caulk too not so much that it interferes with extension jambs
Foam straw can be squeezed/hammered to fit into smaller voids
To avoid snapping straw at nozzle drag straw along with other hand
Wear gloves as the foam is hard to remove from skin
Put foam in sparingly, start at bottom work up (gravity)
I prefer two beads one back towards the fin and then wait 20 minutes or so and apply the second bead if needed
be careful if it gets on carpet etc.
lock the windows and don't put too much in to avoid bowing mainframe
If straw still doesn't fit then caulk it
I back up interior gap with caulk too not so much that it interferes with extension jambs
Re: Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
Thanks:
For tight spaces along the vertical sides, is closed cell or soft, open cell better? I talked with some folks that make backer rod and was told soft cell (which in reality has a closed cell skin and soft cell interior) is better for variable gaps because you can compress it better than closed cell. Is one better than another in regards to any other features?
For tight spaces along the vertical sides, is closed cell or soft, open cell better? I talked with some folks that make backer rod and was told soft cell (which in reality has a closed cell skin and soft cell interior) is better for variable gaps because you can compress it better than closed cell. Is one better than another in regards to any other features?
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Re: Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
Closed cell injection foam trumps all other comparisons when applied properly.
Re: Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
Thanks everyone.
WOW.. by closed cell injection foam, you are talking low expansion foam from a cannister, right? Does Great Stuff window and door Pro fall in this category? I bought one of their Pro guns to use with the cannisters.
What I will do is used the Great Stuff pro in spots I can insert the gun nozzle or plastic straw extension, and in areas too tight to fit the nozzle, I will use closed cell backer rod and caulk, or just a bead of caulk, between the Tyvek flap and the window frame. I assume for the low expansion foam, I should try to lay down the bead of foam as far back in the rough opening as possible -basically along the backside of the nail fin flange, right?
Am I on the right track here folks? Is Great Stuff Pro decent material?
WOW.. by closed cell injection foam, you are talking low expansion foam from a cannister, right? Does Great Stuff window and door Pro fall in this category? I bought one of their Pro guns to use with the cannisters.
What I will do is used the Great Stuff pro in spots I can insert the gun nozzle or plastic straw extension, and in areas too tight to fit the nozzle, I will use closed cell backer rod and caulk, or just a bead of caulk, between the Tyvek flap and the window frame. I assume for the low expansion foam, I should try to lay down the bead of foam as far back in the rough opening as possible -basically along the backside of the nail fin flange, right?
Am I on the right track here folks? Is Great Stuff Pro decent material?
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Re: Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
Yes.
You are right on track.
You are right on track.
Re: Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
Hi,
Just installed a 4' X 3' vinyl reno window and insulated with low expansion foam around the perimeter. I had previously installed a smaller bathroom window using the same technique with no issues. However this time, the larger window bowed significantly on the sides. Perhaps I used too much foam, but I think what happens is that the foam cures on the surface and sticks to the framing and the window frame and the inside of the foam continues to expand, pushing out like a man in a narrow hallway pushing against both walls with outstretched arms! The larger window yielded to these forces because it had a relatively more flexible frame than the small one.
Anyway - if this happens to you, you can cut slashes in the foam to release the pressure, re adjust your screws to re-align things, and stuff the gaps with fibreglass insulation. I will just use fibreglass next time. BTW - A local installer/director of a window manufacturer near here told me afterwards that he never uses expanding foam - only fibreglass...
Good luck with your installation.
Regards,
Chris
Just installed a 4' X 3' vinyl reno window and insulated with low expansion foam around the perimeter. I had previously installed a smaller bathroom window using the same technique with no issues. However this time, the larger window bowed significantly on the sides. Perhaps I used too much foam, but I think what happens is that the foam cures on the surface and sticks to the framing and the window frame and the inside of the foam continues to expand, pushing out like a man in a narrow hallway pushing against both walls with outstretched arms! The larger window yielded to these forces because it had a relatively more flexible frame than the small one.
Anyway - if this happens to you, you can cut slashes in the foam to release the pressure, re adjust your screws to re-align things, and stuff the gaps with fibreglass insulation. I will just use fibreglass next time. BTW - A local installer/director of a window manufacturer near here told me afterwards that he never uses expanding foam - only fibreglass...
Good luck with your installation.
Regards,
Chris
Re: Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
This is the reason we advise homeowners that using foam is not critical. You are much better off having your windows installed by an experienced installer who uses fiberglass than to let someone not experienced with using foam, experiment on your home. The advantages of using foam are way overblown considering the potential problem from using it incorrectly, as your post rightfully points out.
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Re: Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
Wrong type of foam, poor installation technique... Foam is superior in every way. I prefer not to install an "air-filter" (fiberglass) around the opening of my clients' new windows... That being said, fg is definitely more user friendly for diy's, as are other inferior products and procedures.... I dont mean to discourage diy's, but if there was little or no difference between a diy installation and a professional one, we wouldn't have much business.crbennett wrote:Hi,
Just installed a 4' X 3' vinyl reno window and insulated with low expansion foam around the perimeter. I had previously installed a smaller bathroom window using the same technique with no issues. However this time, the larger window bowed significantly on the sides. Perhaps I used too much foam, but I think what happens is that the foam cures on the surface and sticks to the framing and the window frame and the inside of the foam continues to expand, pushing out like a man in a narrow hallway pushing against both walls with outstretched arms! The larger window yielded to these forces because it had a relatively more flexible frame than the small one.
Anyway - if this happens to you, you can cut slashes in the foam to release the pressure, re adjust your screws to re-align things, and stuff the gaps with fibreglass insulation. I will just use fibreglass next time. BTW - A local installer/director of a window manufacturer near here told me afterwards that he never uses expanding foam - only fibreglass...
Good luck with your installation.
Regards,
Chris
Re: Dow Great Stuff foam or backer rod/caulk?
I just caulk between the Tyvek flap and the window frame? In other words, the caulk bead seal will be on the interior side of the window, briding the Tyvek flap to the frame, as opposed to back up against the back side of the nail fin flange where foam would seal.
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