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 Post subject: Re: Window World or Clear Choice Windows
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:37 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:11 am
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Skydawggy wrote:
From an article in Replacement Contractor Online:

Quote:
"When directly asked by REPLACEMENT CONTRACTOR to respond to the charge that they practice bait-and-switch tactics and are deceiving consumers with their advertising, executives from three major low-price companies firmly denied it. “Our $185 window is the one we walk in the home with,” says Gardner, of Clear Choice."

"In fact, the low-price window is always available to customers. But it's a generic double-hung window that comes with no insulating gas, no low-E coating, no capping, nor any of the features typically included as part of the price of a vinyl replacement window that more typically sells for anywhere from $450 to $700. These add-ons must be — and nine times out of 10, are — ordered by the homeowner."

“I would guess that 10% to 15% of our windows are sold at $189,” offers Whitworth, CEO of Window World, Inc. "

"And though the price in Window World advertising is “$189 installed,” that installation would have to be relatively primitive, since a separate 'Miscellaneous' portion of the Window World price sheet lists various extra charges including sill or jamb repair ($45), sill or jamb replacement ($125), custom exterior trim ($50), etc. In addition, there is a “measuring and landfill disposal fee” of $100 for the total job."

"Clearly, while some portion of the windows sold by Window World, Clear Choice, and Window Depot USA are sold at their advertised price, the great majority are not. “If you want to make money in this business, you can't live on $185,” concedes Clear Choice dealer Cassidy."

"Traditional window companies wonder about the quality of an installation that takes half as much time. “You're pulling out the trim stops, pushing in four screws, you caulk it up and go,” notes Talmon, of Larmco Windows. "

"To make sufficient margin on the low-price sale, Kelly, who was paying his regular installers an average of $70 per opening, needed to find subcontractors who would install for half that. He couldn't. I interviewed a lot of folks I could pay $35 to, like a lot of the low-price,” he says. “But I couldn't feel good about putting them out there with my name attached.” Ultimately, he ended up using his regular installation crews — “they'd just change out their hats and shirts” — at their regular rates. That cut his already “razor-thin” margins to unsustainable levels."

I see no problem with breaking down your prices and charging for add-ons.I have seen WW's bids before and they are easy to read,were not hiding anything and the prices were all there.At that point it's up to the homeowner to decide.Is this kelly paying his installers $70 to install a window and wrapping?


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 Post subject: Re: Window World or Clear Choice Windows
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:29 am 
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I don't think the Window World of Clear Choice pricing structure and advertising violates any laws, however, I think it is borderline slimmy.

To advertise a window that will amount to about 0.001% of their installed product is a bit sleazy. It gets the phone to ring and allows them to get in the home and close out the lead.


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 Post subject: Re: Window World or Clear Choice Windows
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:02 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:11 pm
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You mentioned Feldco. They have been solving customers window problems in the midwest for 40 years. They certainly have satisfied a great deal of people over the years. They have also recently been rated as one of the top rated window and door companies in the country.


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 Post subject: Re: Window World or Clear Choice Windows
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:58 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:51 pm
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Location: Northern,Virginia
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Windows on Washington wrote:
I don't think the Window World of Clear Choice pricing structure and advertising violates any laws, however, I think it is borderline slimmy.

To advertise a window that will amount to about 0.001% of their installed product is a bit sleazy. It gets the phone to ring and allows them to get in the home and close out the lead.



I agree. Most "Tin Men" don't violate the law either. I think companies like WW and the Tin men are in good company together. Both walk the technically legal line without going over it. Funny how some consumers will say they won't buy from a high pressure Tin Man even if it's a great deal because they don't want to support that kind of tactic but will purchase from a company like WW. What they really mean is it's all about ethics until the price gets low enough. Ironically, that's the same tactic the Tin men use.


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 Post subject: Re: Window World or Clear Choice Windows
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:12 pm 
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windowman736 wrote:
You mentioned Feldco. They have been solving customers window problems in the midwest for 40 years. They certainly have satisfied a great deal of people over the years. They have also recently been rated as one of the top rated window and door companies in the country.

lol, was that a Feldco press release or what? :lol: .... Their online reviews speak volumes..
I have to agree with Sky on this subject. The tinmen AND the WW's/CC's of the world are both DECEIVING clients and both should be called onto the carpet for doing so. Here's the bottom line: You CANNOT get a quality window and/or a quality install for under $300... However, it shouldn't cost you $1300 either. Quality window, quality install, ethical company = $400-$800 installed depending on options. Anyone who wants to argue with that clearly has alterior motives.


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 Post subject: Re: Window World or Clear Choice Windows
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:06 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:08 pm
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I agree with HomeSealed.


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 Post subject: Re: Window World or Clear Choice Windows
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:37 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:50 pm
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Again, I dont see a problem with breaking down pricing. Everyone comes on these threads and knocks the competition. So what window do the rest of you guys sell? Does everyone pay a flat price regardless of the work that is involved in installing the new windows? And what do you charge?

I like how everyone has a better idea but hesitates to tell how they do it? It must be because you know some industry secrets????HA! I've said it before, Window World is my largest competitor and Ive seen those guys do good work and Ive seen crews from the same location do bad work.......all depends on who they have working for them and thats a gamble they take. As far as their quality of product.....I agree it isnt the best vinyl window in the market place but its funny that the same company that makes the alside window is making MANY other windows in the same factory with the same workers. Yes I am sure some components change but lets be honest.....is it a $400.00 difference in changes???

I envy Window World, they have developed a great price point platform and in my area they sell 12,000 + units per year and maintain a great rating with the BBB...... If it was such junk and the installations were SOOOO terrible, why would people buy so much. Does everyone really think that there are so many stupid people out there and just a few of us are smart enough not to buy their product?

-Makes me wonder.......


At the end of the day, we all must remember......there is a place for all of us that are in business. Lets talk intelligently about our comapny and products but to keep saying stuff is junk and they are bad......why not enlighten us on a better way or better product.


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 Post subject: Re: Window World or Clear Choice Windows
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 2:05 pm 
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jrr284 wrote:
Again, I dont see a problem with breaking down pricing. Everyone comes on these threads and knocks the competition. So what window do the rest of you guys sell? Does everyone pay a flat price regardless of the work that is involved in installing the new windows? And what do you charge?

I like how everyone has a better idea but hesitates to tell how they do it? It must be because you know some industry secrets????HA! I've said it before, Window World is my largest competitor and Ive seen those guys do good work and Ive seen crews from the same location do bad work.......all depends on who they have working for them and thats a gamble they take. As far as their quality of product.....I agree it isnt the best vinyl window in the market place but its funny that the same company that makes the alside window is making MANY other windows in the same factory with the same workers. Yes I am sure some components change but lets be honest.....is it a $400.00 difference in changes???

I envy Window World, they have developed a great price point platform and in my area they sell 12,000 + units per year and maintain a great rating with the BBB...... If it was such junk and the installations were SOOOO terrible, why would people buy so much. Does everyone really think that there are so many stupid people out there and just a few of us are smart enough not to buy their product?

-Makes me wonder.......


At the end of the day, we all must remember......there is a place for all of us that are in business. Lets talk intelligently about our comapny and products but to keep saying stuff is junk and they are bad......why not enlighten us on a better way or better product.

I actually agree with most of your point jrr. Although in response to, " If it was such junk and the installations were SOOOO terrible, why would people buy so much. Does everyone really think that there are so many stupid people out there and just a few of us are smart enough not to buy their product?" My response would be no, people are not stupid, just very "price conscious" and unwilling to do the research to find out why there is such a price difference... I prefer to sell, install, and recommend products with better reputations and ratings. In addition, the installation of the window is soooo important, that it is nuts to take the risk of a "bargain" install. I believe the fact that WW does not have more negative reviews than they do (BBB rating is bought and paid for btw), is due in large part to the fact that a person who is looking to buy the cheapest window that he/she can find, is also far less likely to notice quality issue with the product or install.


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 Post subject: Re: Window World or Clear Choice Windows
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 2:12 pm 
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... I'd also add that a search will reveal that no AMI window products are held in high regard around here, regardless of the label on them. In fact, I think that is far worse-- to overcharge for a questionable product such as many Preservation(among others) dealers do.


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 Post subject: Re: Window World or Clear Choice Windows
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 2:21 pm 

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I'd also add that people who buy low end products are far less likely to complain about them than purchasers of higher end products. If you buy a $25 table from WalMart, are you really going to complain when it falls apart in 3 years? If you buy a round trip airline ticket to Hawaii for $199, are you going to complain about the amount of leg room you have?


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 Post subject: Re: Window World or Clear Choice Windows
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:18 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:50 pm
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I agree with you guys. But these customers need somewhere to go. Yes, WW takes some of the really good customers too but at the end of the day, would you rather charge more and offer a product and installation that you can stand behind for the entire time your in the market place? I WOULD! so I think its great there is an option for people to get a "bargain", then I dont have to go in and get beat up for selling a window thats double the cost.

Dont know about AMI really, I dont care for any of their products except the Alside vinyl siding isnt too bad. Again, walmart shoppers are everywhere.....and as the economy continues to be bad, the more "walmart" shoppers this country is going to get. Unfortunate but its certainly a reality.


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 Post subject: Re: Window World or Clear Choice Windows
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:00 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:36 am
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Window world is the original 189.00 national window company. They changed the industry whether one thinks it for the good or not is another topic. However isn't this country based on competition? Competition drives prices down and it what the customer wants, when the prices on everything are skyrocketing.

Having worked in sales for several of these window companies, I know whats going on behind the scenes as well. What some call bait and switch isn't quite a fair attachment in all cases. W.W. for example sells windows at 185-189 all the time even in states like Massachusetts where low e is required on heated spaces.

On the non heated spaces and there are many, 189 is the installed price on a simple install. Hence the words "prices starting at 189". Is this false advertising? Absolutely not and the courts have said as much.

When you buy a car, the price starts at a base price and goes up from there for options and packages. It's the same with WW.

We all know that Customer referrals are the life blood of any business. WW gets a lot of them, usually 30% +. That speaks to quality(good housekeeping seal), customer service whom JD powers says they rate #2 nationwide and everything else the customer wants. You can bash number #1 all you like, but they are there for a reason.

It looks to me like there is a bit of jealousy on a lot of these comments, which is understandable but you can't deny the facts.


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 Post subject: Re: Window World or Clear Choice Windows
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:59 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:14 pm
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first off, we all know there are always "add ons" to that 189 price. second, we all know thats an extremely poor quality window. why anyone would even think of putting a window like that in their home is a mystery. WW would have much more credibility if they were more truthful, " we install a garbage window for 189 " .. i mean really, why install such junk .


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 Post subject: Re: Window World or Clear Choice Windows
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:59 pm 
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At the end of the day, WW's average window sale is nearly $400 according to Replacement Contractor magazine. This is not a good deal for that product. It is nearing, if not in the range of some of the elite choices available, and with more qualified, experienced, better paid installers to boot. THAT is a fact.... The $189 window may very well exist, but it is sold at a low volume and gives nothing more than a false impression that consumers are in fact getting "the best for less", when they end up paying $400 for a mediocre product. WW capitalized on an industry that was primarily populated by snake oil salesmen at the time. As we all move forward and provide better value, service, along with honesty and convenience in the buying process, that does not bode well for the WW type of business model in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Window World or Clear Choice Windows
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:56 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:37 pm
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Full disclosure-I worked for AMI and as a result worked closely with Window World for a number of years and eventually opened a competitor based on their business model.

The bait and switch argument holds no water in any discussion about WW, they can and will install a window for $189, provided its a post 1978 wood out and the homeowner handles disposal. Everything else is menu driven and thats the beauty of the model, WW hands the control to the customer regarding how much they want to pay. Customer wants LowE? add $70 bucks or whatever. They don't have to lower the price when a rejection comes up, they simply ask the homeowner to take off whatever component breaks their budget.

The formula is simple; 0-101 price from manufacturer around $115, Installer paid $25, commission is $5 for the base window unit. With tax the WW dealer is looking at COGS of $155 with tax and caulk. So the dealer nets $34 per window or 18%. The average WW sells 6000 units per year with the big guns like Tidewater, VA or New Orleans selling upwards of 50k per year. The average unit retail is $315 including Patio Doors, The average commission is $27, install is $51, so total COGS is around $222 leaving the dealer with $93 per unit to pay for advertising and overhead. Advertising is 8%-10% of sales with a goal of a $150-$175 lead cost and a 60% closing ratio. The smaller dealers are seeing adjusted gross profit of $500k per year after COGS, Labor, and Commission. They can realistically bring home $250k individually. Big guns are millionaires without question.

Pretty good for a barely literate blue suede shoe guy starting in one location on the side of a road in the Carolina's.


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