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 Post subject: Re: My HD Simonton Journey
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:02 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:32 pm
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Location: Delaware, New Jersey, Philadephia Area
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HomeSealed is correct. You don't need any caulking in the miter unless they are back caulked behind the header cap. When I see guys try to force fit a header miter joint and then fill it with caulk, it's just going to be a matter time for that caulking to get dirty and not look good.


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 Post subject: Re: My HD Simonton Journey
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:20 am 

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:23 pm
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Thanks guys. They are still here and the 1st picture was a 2nd floor window installed yesterday. There was some calk on that window but the top corner was not done. There was no drip edge along the top of the old windows. Here is a picture of another one they just did on 1st floor, you will see this one is calked. I have to paint the whole house soon so if I have to hit some with calk it's not a big deal BUT this is not something I should have to deal with when I dropped 9+ k.


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 Post subject: Re: My HD Simonton Journey
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:33 am 
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I take it they're not caulking the sides?
We do them differently. We run a thin sawblade down the side so the wrapping can go all the way back. Then we caulk the sides to prevent water infiltration. Doing it that way prevents a potential big ugly bead of caulk running down the sides.


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 Post subject: Re: My HD Simonton Journey
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:50 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Window4U (IL) wrote:
I take it they're not caulking the sides?
We do them differently. We run a thin sawblade down the side so the wrapping can go all the way back. Then we caulk the sides to prevent water infiltration. Doing it that way prevents a potential big ugly bead of caulk running down the sides.

That's exactly what I was referring to. Either cut a groove, or scribe the trim and notch it around every siding lap. I would never accept that from one of my installers. Whether or not HD does is another story. This is a perfect example of what those of us who care about quality are talking about when we say "cut-rate" installation. Even if you demand that they caulk that, they will just glob a huge bead in those sides and it will look terrible. I don't want to panic you , but if they are cutting corners like that, it makes me wonder if there are corners being cut in other areas as well.


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 Post subject: Re: My HD Simonton Journey
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:25 pm 
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HomeSealed wrote:
Window4U (IL) wrote:
I take it they're not caulking the sides?
We do them differently. We run a thin sawblade down the side so the wrapping can go all the way back. Then we caulk the sides to prevent water infiltration. Doing it that way prevents a potential big ugly bead of caulk running down the sides.

That's exactly what I was referring to. Either cut a groove, or scribe the trim and notch it around every siding lap. I would never accept that from one of my installers. Whether or not HD does is another story. This is a perfect example of what those of us who care about quality are talking about when we say "cut-rate" installation. Even if you demand that they caulk that, they will just glob a huge bead in those sides and it will look terrible. I don't want to panic you , but if they are cutting corners like that, it makes me wonder if there are corners being cut in other areas as well.


Like this: note the nice caulk bead and installed drip cap that wasn't there before the install.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: My HD Simonton Journey
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:50 pm 
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Beautiful work Dave. :D


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 Post subject: Re: My HD Simonton Journey
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:26 am 
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Very nice indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: My HD Simonton Journey
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:35 am 

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:27 am
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Location: Texas - Houston & Austin
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This is a very instructive thread for homeowners. Hopefully others will now see why we warn against using Home Depot or Lowe's, and the elements that go into a professional installation vs. a hack job. Quality work costs more, there's just no way around that, and it's always better to pay a little more than you should, than a little less than you should.

Very nice workmanship Dave.


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 Post subject: Re: My HD Simonton Journey
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:08 am 

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:23 pm
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OK, so here goes my 'end of project' post. I hope all this helps future home owners decide who / what to go with. Some great advice here and yes, you pros posting here do nice work! My 'assumption' was that for work like Dave posted I would pay caviar price; however, I had a tuna fish budget :wink: Maybe I'm wrong but one thing for sure my windows won't ever look as nice as that Dave.

First I'm going to address the windows themselves. From what I have seen so far they are very good quality. Last night the temp dropped into the 40's we truly noticed a difference, no more having to wear a knit cap to bed ;) Aside from the comfort one BIG thing we noticed is how quiet the bedrooms are now. Yesterday it was very windy and when the guys finished one room we went in and my wife said .. do you hear that? What she meant was we couldn't hear the wind .. the wind chimes outside.. etc. BIG difference :-) That said, the windows are not perfect. My small bathroom DH window with one latch can be rocked left / right about a 1/16" when closed and latched. I did notice the screws holding the latch hardware are not snug so that's something I'll have to take care of. Another issue I noticed on a few windows is that the vinyl in the jambs did not get seated completely before it was glued (or whatever they do). I've attached an example which shows the 'slope' of the sash on a slider. I tried to snap it down but no luck. So far this does not seem to impact the operation or R value.

The install crew were nice guys, they worked hard and had all 18 done in about a day and half. They never even took lunch breaks! I did mention the calking situation on some corners and they took care of it, they also left me a tube of the calk they use in case I run into anything when I paint the house. The sides were not calked so when I paint the house I guess I'll need to do that. They did say the drip edge on the old windows was nailed to the top of the exterior casing. I guess that's why I never noticed it. For this reason they installed the wrap over it and calked it. They did a pretty good job cleaning up; however, the interior cleanup was not great. Saw dust and some mud on the floor was one example but I didn't sweat it, these guys are window installers not maids. My wife and I are pretty much clean freaks anyway so we were cleaning rooms before they even had a chance. They did say it was nice to work in a clean home 8)

I've also attached a before and after photo of a casement window they replaced with a slider.

All in all on a scale of 8-10 I'd give the windows an 8 and the project management / install an 8.5. I'll check back after we get some real cold and heavy rains.

If you decide to deal with HD my advice would be:
-Go with the 6500 series not the 'lower price' model if you plan to stay in your home.
-Make your expectations clear to the sales person and project manager. Walk around and asked questions like 'will the window wrap be completely sealed'. You should even specify how you want the top wrap to marry the sides, as you can see in the this post there are different methods and looks. I for one would have preferred a method like Mike mentioned (long header cap which tabs over the sides) but I didn't mention this before and didn't see the method on my project until 8 windows were already installed.
-BE HOME.. specifically to watch the work being done and ask questions. Don't 'hover' but make sure windows are being insulated, watch how the wrap is being installed and sealed and if you have questions ASK.
-DON'T be a 'jerk', I guarantee if you are nice to the crew they will in turn work harder to ensure you're pleased with the install. Strike up small talk, offer something to drink or a snack but don't turn it into a social event where they need to rush to finish :lol:

So.. now I have 4 LARGE casement windows to replace and I plan to give a local contractor or two a shot at bidding the project. I'm not unhappy with HD but I'd just like to see what the price difference would be and maybe .. just maybe .. start a new thread on that project :lol:

Thanks again all!


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File comment: jamb slope
slope.jpg [23.7 KiB]
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File comment: slider after
after.JPG [89.99 KiB]
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File comment: casement before
before.JPG [114.9 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: My HD Simonton Journey
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Location: Delaware, New Jersey, Philadephia Area
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Regarding the first picture of the "slope" on the sill rail that the sashes glide upon, that should be a very simple fix. That rail is shaped like the letter "U" and just snaps into the sill. It looks like the corner is simply not snapped all the way down into it's full resting position. You may be able to just push it down with your hands. If not, there may be some weld flash impeding the grooves for it be fully secured. You will want to remove the sashes and gently pry the rail up with a putty knife or straight screw drive being carefully not to damage anything. Check for some vinyl weld flash/debris and just clean the over spill out. I small clean wood chisel works best. I like them in new condition with a super sharp tip so it does a better job.

I would consider Window4U's (Dave) work to be the "Gold" standard. And while it does take more time to do things like he/we do, it doesn't always have to be perceived to cost more. When guys get really experienced with brickmold bending with either the free hand method or the utilization of a Tapco Brake Buddy/Van Mark Trim former they get efficient with these kinds of tools and techniques. It will cost a little more, but it's still less than a bunch of hands in the pie multilevel sales commissions and marketing expenses typically associated with very large window dealers. I'm not knocking the big guys, but some of the smaller guys out there by needs of survival have had to hone and master skills like this to separate ourselves for those out there with greater resources for exposure.

Looks like Dave made sure the capping was tucked fully behind the return to the face of the sheathing which makes it completely behind the deepest part of the lap of the siding. He may have had to create a very slight groove along side the brickmolding by means of trimming off a little siding. With wood or aluminum siding this takes time and precision work, but is the correct method. Once the capping is installed, the sealant is now visible to the homeowner which can now be inspected periodically. We just did a job just like this expect they already had drip caps.

Dave, is that the standard roller that comes with the Brake Buddy? I have a Van Mark Trim Former for my Van Mark brake. I just picked up a Tapco 12' 6" yesterday and was thinking about getting a Brake Buddy with both the standard brickmold roller and the optional one.


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 Post subject: Re: My HD Simonton Journey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:47 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:58 pm
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Location: Northern & Central Illinois, Chicago suburbs
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Delaware Mike wrote:
We just did a job just like this expect they already had drip caps.

Dave, is that the standard roller that comes with the Brake Buddy? I have a Van Mark Trim Former for my Van Mark brake. I just picked up a Tapco 12' 6" yesterday and was thinking about getting a Brake Buddy with both the standard brickmold roller and the optional one.


Yes, I did this with the brake buddy brickmold rollers. I also have the crown mold roller, v-groove roller and the rib roller.

I used to have the extra long brake too. Great for not having to two-piece sill and headers. Heavy though. Good thing you're a body builder!

I temporarily took the top piece of wood casing off and installed a drip cap up under the siding and sheathing paper, then reinstalled the top casing before wrapping the window and tucking the top piece of metal under the new drip cap.

As far as cost, this job cost about $570 a window with triple pane and 'between the glass' grids. You as consumers don't have to pay a premium for proper methodology. Properly trained installers do the same proper work from job to job no matter the cost of what their company charges for the windows.


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