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 Post subject: how to clean up the lead dust during installation
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:21 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:53 am
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My house is 50 years old, and i have a little kid, so we very concern about the lead cleaning. Could someone here who know how to do the correct lead cleaning? The contractor charge the lead cleaning fee, but they would not do the lead-dust test, so how i know the job is done?


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 Post subject: Re: how to clean up the lead dust during installation
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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1) That contractor is required to provide you with a pamphlet called Renovate Right, which may answer some of your questions. 2) He is also required to do a "wipe test" at the end of the job, and clean further if it does not pass the first time. I don't have the stats handy, but in the 50's, there is a pretty decent chance that your house does not have lead paint. That being said, these procedures are taken very seriously, and unless your house tests negative for lead, he is required to follow them. If you want, you may also ask him for copies of the lead checklist and other documents related to this that he is required to keep records of. In fact, starting soon, the contractor will be required to provide you with a copy of this. We've installed this process already, as we provide these copies with our lien waiver upon completion.
If your contractor has no idea about any of this stuff, I'd suggest that you move on and find someone else.


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 Post subject: Re: how to clean up the lead dust during installation
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:25 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:53 am
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I ask many contractors included Sears Window Co., they don't offer the wipe test. What i gonna do?
HomeSealed wrote:
1) That contractor is required to provide you with a pamphlet called Renovate Right, which may answer some of your questions. 2) He is also required to do a "wipe test" at the end of the job, and clean further if it does not pass the first time. I don't have the stats handy, but in the 50's, there is a pretty decent chance that your house does not have lead paint. That being said, these procedures are taken very seriously, and unless your house tests negative for lead, he is required to follow them. If you want, you may also ask him for copies of the lead checklist and other documents related to this that he is required to keep records of. In fact, starting soon, the contractor will be required to provide you with a copy of this. We've installed this process already, as we provide these copies with our lien waiver upon completion.
If your contractor has no idea about any of this stuff, I'd suggest that you move on and find someone else.


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 Post subject: Re: how to clean up the lead dust during installation
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:15 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:28 pm
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I'm guessing you may be a little confused here. There is no requirement to test for the presence of lead based paint in a home built before 1978 as long as the contractor assumes there is lead and takes appropriate measures as spelled out in EPA's directives. Part of this assumption would include a dust wipe test at the conclusion of the job which is required. So there are 2 possible tests with only one the second one. at the end of the job, being mandatory.
OTOH unless the contractor has reason to believe there is the presence of lead, it's a bit presumptious to add the additional cost of containment without being sure. However, due to the possibility of litigation sometime in the future, some contractors will not accept a job in a pre-1978 house without undertaking containment procedures, regardless of the results of a lead test.


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 Post subject: Re: how to clean up the lead dust during installation
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:36 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Eco's clarification is right on.... With Sears, I'm guessing that they do do the wipe test as it is required, but you probably just have a salesperson that knows extremely little about what goes on during an installation. That is not I situation that I advocate... OTOH, I guess it is possible that they do not do it, but if so, they would not be in compliance and are setting themselves up for some trouble based on both fines, etc, and the liability issue as well.


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 Post subject: Re: how to clean up the lead dust during installation
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:38 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:57 am
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I am awaiting a quote but the sales person said old window removal requires hazardous material handling and disposal procedures that "jacks up the installation cost". There are four 6' x 3' windows and 14 smaller windows. My house is in Corpus Christi and it was built in 1977. We purchased it in 2010 and the property inspector found no evidence of lead. What is a typical surcharge for this?

If I have a formal lead survey done, would you expect an installer to accept the certificate if no lead is found in lieu of charging me the hazardous material surcharge? (I know - it depends on the installer but I would like to have the property checked once and that result accepted for any future work.)


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 Post subject: Re: how to clean up the lead dust during installation
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:34 am 

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:27 am
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Location: Texas - Houston & Austin
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Although lead paint is more common close to the coast, I would be shocked if you have any lead based paint on a house built in 1977. so far, we've found very few houses with lead paint here in Houston.

If you have a professional lead test done, with an XRF gun (X-ray fluorescence), the contractor should abide by the result. If he doesn't want to, find another contractor.

Is the contractor certified through the EPA? If not, he's not supposed to be working on houses built prior to 1978 in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: how to clean up the lead dust during installation
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:33 am 
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Location: Northern & Central Illinois, Chicago suburbs
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randy wrote:

Is the contractor certified through the EPA? If not, he's not supposed to be working on houses built prior to 1978 in the first place.


....and the fines from the EPA for not following the rules are life altering for a contractor.


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 Post subject: Re: how to clean up the lead dust during installation
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:05 am 
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison areas
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Randy's points are right on. If you have a legitimate test done, you will have a legal document stating that your home tested negative. A copy of this is all the installer needs to waive those charges as he will then keep it on record in the event of an audit.
I'd definitely recommend a test for a 1977 home. VERY unlikely to contain lead.


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 Post subject: Re: how to clean up the lead dust during installation
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:14 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:57 am
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randy wrote:
If you have a professional lead test done, with an XRF gun (X-ray fluorescence), the contractor should abide by the result. If he doesn't want to, find another contractor.
I will request the XRF gun test.

"find another contractor" will be done too but for a different reason. This guy said to get other quotes (which we are going to to anyway) and then he wants to come back and meet or beat the others. In my 40+ years as a professional engineer, I have never treated prospective suppliers that way and a low price is no bargain if I get a poor product and/or installation.

Is the contractor certified through the EPA? If not, he's not supposed to be working on houses built prior to 1978 in the first place.

The sales person showed me a certificate from when he received some training on this subject. He seemed knowledgeable on the requirements and the ramifications for contractors who do not follow them (and for homeowners if lead paint is present and not handled properly).

The helpful information available on this website is appreciated. Thanks guys (and gals if any are on board) for sharing your experience and time.


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 Post subject: Re: how to clean up the lead dust during installation
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:01 am 

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:52 pm
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Location: SE PA & NJ; CT
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I have had two customers in the last two years that had XRF test showing no lead which we accepted as documentation for no containment protocol.
The whole EPA/RRP thing is government at its worst. Though we comply, the risk of lead poisoning is so small for everyone that it is insane.


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 Post subject: Re: how to clean up the lead dust during installation
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:47 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:57 am
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anthony wrote:
The whole EPA/RRP thing is government at its worst. Though we comply, the risk of lead poisoning is so small for everyone that it is insane.


Thanks for your response. Generally, I agree with your statements that I quoted above. I would like to say more but this is not the place for my political opinions.


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 Post subject: Re: how to clean up the lead dust during installation
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:57 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:11 am
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There were about 70 children lead poisoned in Minneapolis last year.
My own brother poisoned his child
My current tennant has a child that was poisoned from there last rental.
My sister-in-law 's nurse just recently has a lead poisoned child.
I also know someone who was an active window preservationist(vinyl window hater) who poisoned his child as well as himself rehabbing his old windows.
I have had dust samples taken from my jobs that have shown higer levels of lead even from removing vinyl inserts with poly on the floors.
Most window installers show signs of chronic lead poisoning as well.
The biggest pain with the RRP for me is the record keeping and the dirty diapers, the rest is pretty simple.


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 Post subject: Re: how to clean up the lead dust during installation
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:38 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:37 pm
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Todd,

Can you supply any data or studies on these points you have raised. I would be especially interested as it pertains to the numbers of people poisoned last year and the chronic lead poisoning of installers.

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: how to clean up the lead dust during installation
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:59 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:11 am
Posts: 320
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www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/data/index.htm

This will show data up to 2009, I don't know if the 2010 data is public yet.
I do know one child went through chelation and almost died, this was not from remodeling work but most likely some peeling paint that was ingested.

The man who rehabbed his windows has written something about his experience, I'll see if I can track this down next week since I have been meaning to do so.

The symtons for adults can be memory loss,irrtability,learning ,decline in mental function, limp wrist, Sounds like most window installers I know. OK, I was just kidding about this .


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